WI: Gallipoli Naval Attack Succeeded?

Anaxagoras

Banned
Alratan said:
What will the British be doing about the Ottoman forces on the other side of the Straits?

Ignoring them. Kitchener was firmly opposed to major operations on the Asian side of the strait. He feared (rightly, IMHO) that there would be a risk of the Allies being drawn into a useless and difficult campaign with no benefit. As a result, aside from a raid by the French to distract the Turks, the Allies avoided landing any forces on the Asian side.

Alratan said:
What will the Ottoman government be up to, or has it collapsed. Will the Allies have to pick one of the military commanders on Gallipoli to negotiate with as a representative of his government?

I would think it has collapsed. It was already quite shaky. The Sultan was powerless and the oung Turks were in control. But the Young Turks were at daggers drawn with one another and hopelessly corrupt. With a successful forcing of the straits and the British in control of Constantinople, I think they would have thought only of saving their own skins.

As for whom the Allies might negotiate with, it could well have been Mustafa Kemal, although I'm not sure exactly where he was in March.
 
Anaxagoras said:
Ignoring them. Kitchener was firmly opposed to major operations on the Asian side of the strait. He feared (rightly, IMHO) that there would be a risk of the Allies being drawn into a useless and difficult campaign with no benefit. As a result, aside from a raid by the French to distract the Turks, the Allies avoided landing any forces on the Asian side.
OK. The problem is that the British and French now have a city to feed, and I believe lots of the food has to come from the East. OTOH, they may be able to get it fom Russia.

I would think it has collapsed. It was already quite shaky. The Sultan was powerless and the oung Turks were in control. But the Young Turks were at daggers drawn with one another and hopelessly corrupt. With a successful forcing of the straits and the British in control of Constantinople, I think they would have thought only of saving their own skins.
OK, if we assume this, I'll have to redraw the time table above. With no Ottoman government to negotiate with, and the Young Turks disintegrating/killing each other/disappearing into the hinterland, it's going to get complicated for the Allies.

Questions:

Will the Sultan survive to be a figurehead of a new government?

Will the Ottoman Empire simply implode Russian style at the end of World War I, or worse, like China did earlier?

With the central government gone, what will the commanders in the field do. Will they retreat to Turkey proper with their forces to pick over the spoils, will they stay and fight?

What happens to the Ottoman armies' German advisors?

In the absence of a state to negotiate with, will the Allies feel less restrained in dismembering it to give bits to the various Balkan states?

With no central government to oppose them, will the Balkan states prefer to send troops into the East to divide the spoils, and if so, will the Allies let them?

Does it all get very messy?

As for whom the Allies might negotiate with, it could well have been Mustafa Kemal, although I'm not sure exactly where he was in March.
Without Gallipoli, I don't think he has any standing beyond the next random army officer. They'll probably have to negotiate in some form with Velip Pasha (commander of Ottoman forces or Gallipoli), which could provide a basis for further negotiations.
 
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Assuming the Gallipoli Campaign succeeded, it might have resulted in a dramatically lower British commitement to the Western Front. Perhaps we would see a focus on naval and economic warfare, with substantial but comparatively small British forces dispatched to France, Italy and the Balkans. No slaughter of the British at the Somme.

This, in turn, might have important ramifications for the post-war world. If the Germans, French and Russians have suffered massive losses while the British have suffered substantially fewer casualties, it might vastly improve Britain's comparative power later on.
A bit OT: this also has ramifications on WW2. Britain was extremely leery of a "direct approach" on return to France, in part due to hi cas in WW1. France also (early on, anyhow) was affected psychologically, & IIRC, had manpower issues as a result, too. (Just goes to show, everything's connected...)
 
I haven't seen any Gallipoli postings in awhile, so I thought I'd toss this one in:

On March 18, 1915, a combined British and French naval force attempted to force their way through the Dardanelles, pounding the Turkish forts to pieces along the way. However, several ships hit mines and were sunk. The attack, planned to continue the next day, was called off. In following months, of course, the Allies landed an army which became bogged down in one of the greatest fiascoes of the war, leading to the deaths of hundreds of thousands.

What was not known on the evening of March 18 was that the Turkish defenders were nearly out of ammunition and were terrified at the prospect of a renewed naval assault. Had the Allies pressed on with their attack on March 19, it is very likely that they would have succeeded. Without interference from Turkish artillery, the minesweepers could have dealt with the mines. By March 20 or 21, powerful British and French battleships would have been able to anchor off Constantinople.

What might have the results been? Would Turkey sue for peace? Would renewed supplies to Russia have made a difference on the Eastern Front? Would Greece, Bulgaria and Romania have joined the Allies, thus opening up a third front and saving Serbia? What subsequent course would the war have taken?

Good God, how many times do we have to go over this, again, and again, and again? The Ottomans were not, not, not, not anywhere near running out of ammunition. This is a persistent myth, for which there is no basis whatsoever, fabricated largely by Churchill to cover the stupidity of his plan and it's utter failure.

The Ottomans, in the entire naval campaign, had not expended one-sixth of their ammo, their minefields had not been scratched, and the heaviest defenses of the Dardanelles had not even been reached by the Entente. They had not the slightest fear that the naval assault would continue and were disappointed it was called off before they got to sink more battleships.

Sending pre-Dreadnoughts into a narrow straight commanded from the heights by howitzers, full of minefields, and 150 miles long isn't a strategy, it's suicide.

Even if the ships had gotten through, then what? You're trapped in an inland see and sitting ducks for subs and torpedo craft, you have to supply your ships though straits that are still controlled by enemy troops, and to get to the Black Sea you have to go through ANOTHER straight, nearly equally well defended, with the added problem of the enemy CAPITAL being alongside it. Now I suppose you could shell Constantinople, and become the most infamous force since the Fourth Crusade, but that would not really accomplish much but killing hundred and thousands of civilians, half of them Christian, possibly doing serious harm to your war effort in the way of Russian and Greek opinion, but even then you're still stuck with a fleet operating in an inland sea with access on both sides controlled by the enemy.

So what do you do now? How do you fuel this fleet? Colliers are not going to do well trying to force the Straits. Both of them. Landings at Gallipoli are likely to be more successful because the Ottomans will now have to depend on land transport.

There are a lot of amazing assertions in here about the Ottomans. How was the government shaky? It was not in the slightest shaky. Loss of Istanbul will not cause the empire to collapse. In OTL it did nothing to harm the Nationalist war effort. The government will just move inland - but it's a moot point, since the naval attack on the Dardanelles had virtually no chance of success. It was dependent on the Ottomans being equivalent in military technology and organization as African tribesmen. The idea was "fire some big guns, and they'll cave". Once it was clear that was not the case, they should have called off what can only be characterized a crazy and foolhardy attack.

Seriously, we have this discussion monthly. Let's use our search functions.

If the Entente wanted to pursue an Ottoman strategy, they should have landed near Alexandretta where they could have cut off the Arab provinces from the empire, largely trapped the armies there, and been in a position to support the Russians in the Caucasus.

kitten_die.jpg
 
If the Turkish lines were about to break, they would have called on reinforcements. But assuming that the ANZACs got through the, IIRC, 14th Division, there was really nothing stopping them from marching all the way into Constantinople.

Nothing except the three additional divisions rushing to the site. If the ANZACs had gotten through, the only difference would be that they would have encountered these divisions slightly earlier, and probably under less favorable circumstances.

Even if that hadn't been the case, there was hardly "nothing stopping them from marching all the way to Constantinople". There were also the Chatalja lines, which had stopped the entire Bulgarian army a year before.
 

MrP

Banned
Easy to miss, John, but the thread is from a few years ago. The last post before pacifichistorian renewed discussion is from 29th March, 2006. ;)
 
In March, 1915, most of the Turkish Army was deployed in the Caucasus Mountains, fighting against the Russians. It would have taken a long time for reinforcements to arrive, whereas the Royal Navy and the French Navy would have dropped anchor off Constantinople within a day or two of forcing their way through the Dardanelles.

No, it wasn't. The 2nd Army was in the Caucasus. There were some forces in Palestine and Mesopotamia, but the bulk of the army was concentrated around Istanbul, which is why the Ottomans were able to stage such a massive defense of Gallipoli. They didn't magically teleport everyone from the Caucasus to the peninsula. The Ottoman General Staff generally left sixth months to get a division from Istanbul to the Caucasus front by land.
 
No, but the several minsweepers present could clear out sufficient mines at a sufficiently low cost that the battleships could get through. When that has happened, it's all over.

The several minesweepers present managed to clear virtually no mines whatsoever. Whoever planned Gallipoli failed to take into consideration mobile 6" batteries that were almost impossible to silence with gunfire and could fire upon the vulnerable decks of the Entente battleships, not to mention the defenseless minesweepers.
 
Whereas the Ottomans were defended solely by mines, Goeben and Breslau and a few cruddy ships...

Plus a decent number of not-so-cruddy torpedo boats, a large, well-trained and experienced army with plenty of mobile batteries, and a large number of naval guns and even a few torpedo launchers (not ever reached by the Entente fleet). I think everyone needs to get out a map of the Dardanelles to get a sense of how looney this plan was.
 

MrP

Banned
Plus a decent number of not-so-cruddy torpedo boats, a large, well-trained and experienced army with plenty of mobile batteries, and a large number of naval guns and even a few torpedo launchers (not ever reached by the Entente fleet). I think everyone needs to get out a map of the Dardanelles to get a sense of how looney this plan was.

Oh, come on, John! I've pointed out that this thread is three years old already! When you get round to reading my post so saying, I predict you'll be a bit red-faced for criticising views I, at any rate, no longer hold, and haven't for ages. :p
 
Henry Morgenthau was the American ambassador to Turkey in 1915, and probably the most accurate and intelligent foreign observer of Turkish affairs at the time. He said, "The whole Ottoman state, on that eighteenth day of March, when the Allied fleet abandoned the attack, was on the brink of dissolution." He describes a city in panic, with the government planning on fleeing and many elements within the city ready to welcome the Allies. He was always of the opinion that the moment the fleet arrived off Constantinople, the Turks would surrender.

Henry Morgenthau was not the most accurate and intelligent foreign observer of Turkish affairs at the time, and he didn't even write that. That is from a book ghost written for him in 1918 which was pure wartime propaganda. If you read his diary and correspondence which recorded his observations from the actual time in question, there was no such panic. The government made arrangements to move to Anatolia if necessary, and the idea that people sit around with roses waiting for invaders is a rather common trope that never seems to materialize. Everyone in the city was perfectly aware that Russia had been promised Istanbul, and nobody at all was happy with that prospect.
 
Oh, come on, John! I've pointed out that this thread is three years old already! When you get round to reading my post so saying, I predict you'll be a bit red-faced for criticising views I, at any rate, no longer hold, and haven't for ages. :p

I knew that, I was just testing you. :eek:

I was wondering why Anaxagoras would post this - I was SURE we'd discussed this ad nauseum, and I swear to God if one more person says that the Ottomans were nearly out of ammo I'll rape a puppy.

Alright, this pacifichistorian needs a spanking. No thread necormancy, at least without pointing it out!
 

MrP

Banned
I knew that, I was just testing you. :eek:

I was wondering why Anaxagoras would post this - I was SURE we'd discussed this ad nauseum, and I swear to God if one more person says that the Ottomans were nearly out of ammo I'll rape a puppy.

Alright, this pacifichistorian needs a spanking. No thread necormancy, at least without pointing it out!

Got to keep your eyes open, old boy! ;)

If it helps, when I see a thread pacifichistorian's posted in recently, I tend to assume it's been resurrected. Perhaps it's the spirit of the season! :D
 
If it helps, when I see a thread pacifichistorian's posted in recently, I tend to assume it's been resurrected. Perhaps it's the spirit of the season! :D
It's not.:eek: But it is evident there's discussion still open on these subjects. And a bit of necromancy beats a new thread on a dead horse, no?
 

MrP

Banned
It's not.:eek: But it is evident there's discussion still open on these subjects. And a bit of necromancy beats a new thread on a dead horse, no?

Oh, I don't mind it, old boy! As I say, I've noticed it enough times to see that there is indeed interest in several of the Great Old Ones you are lifting from the Stygian Gloom. Lord, I'm florid this evening. Er, anyway, perhaps you could pop a note on your post when you resurrect a thread, saving chaps like AHP a certain pinkness of hue. ;)
 
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