WI: Gallic kings of Egypt

In the 270 BC Ptolemy II hired 4,000 Gallic mercenaries, but not long after their arrival the Gauls allegedly plotted to seize Egypt, so Ptolemy II marooned them on a deserted island in the Nile River where they all died. What if the Gauls aren't found out and overthrow Ptolemy II? Killing Ptolemy II and taking over the capital is one thing, but can they conquer the rest of Egypt? What happens to the Egyptian holdings in Asia minor and the Levant?
 
Honestly, the best I can see this working out for them is if they try and raise up a puppet of the Ptolemaic line to the throne. Otherwise it can only end in disaster.

EDIT: Though I wonder if there's a way to make a Gallic group kings of Egypt (this POD won't work, and I don't think anything in the Ptolemaic era will TBH)
 
Honestly, the best I can see this working out for them is if they try and raise up a puppet of the Ptolemaic line to the throne. Otherwise it can only end in disaster.

EDIT: Though I wonder if there's a way to make a Gallic group kings of Egypt (this POD won't work, and I don't think anything in the Ptolemaic era will TBH)

Gauls keep migrating south, Galatia is established in the Nile Watershed?
 
4,000 sounds like enough to pull off a successful coup. We'd probably see native rivals popping up in places like Memphis and so on, which the Gallics would need to crush. Assimilation of Hellenic culture/religion/language/dress would do the Gallic usurper a great deal of good, especially if coupled with hasty Ptolemaic-like use of native Egyptian symbols of royalty/religion when necessary.
 
4,000 sounds like enough to pull off a successful coup. We'd probably see native rivals popping up in places like Memphis and so on, which the Gallics would need to crush. Assimilation of Hellenic culture/religion/language/dress would do the Gallic usurper a great deal of good, especially if coupled with hasty Ptolemaic-like use of native Egyptian symbols of royalty/religion when necessary.

I'm sorry, but I can't agree with this. The Greeks could never accept the Celts culturally or politically. They were simply barbarians to them. The recent sacriligious sack of Delphi would only exacerbate the matter. Egyptians attempt native succession in accordance with Ma'at at every opportunity, as they had for millennia - if one considers the Second Intermediate Period.
 
Honestly, the best I can see this working out for them is if they try and raise up a puppet of the Ptolemaic line to the throne. Otherwise it can only end in disaster.

EDIT: Though I wonder if there's a way to make a Gallic group kings of Egypt (this POD won't work, and I don't think anything in the Ptolemaic era will TBH)

I couldn't agree more.
 
In the 270 BC Ptolemy II hired 4,000 Gallic mercenaries, but not long after their arrival the Gauls allegedly plotted to seize Egypt, so Ptolemy II marooned them on a deserted island in the Nile River where they all died. What if the Gauls aren't found out and overthrow Ptolemy II? Killing Ptolemy II and taking over the capital is one thing, but can they conquer the rest of Egypt? What happens to the Egyptian holdings in Asia minor and the Levant?

This would quickly become an interesting footnote of history. Any battle can conceivably be won and so perhaps they could take over Egypt in the very short term. They absolutely could not hold it though. They were too few and neither the Greeks nor Egyptians could ever accept them. It is very difficult to rule by pure force in the face of hostile populations. You need at least a modicum of political consent. So those are the domestic objections. In terms of international reactions, the Seleucids would annex anything they could get troops to and quite certainly attempt to invade Egypt, per the Syrian Wars. Also, the situation would attract military adventurers from the Hellenic World to carve out a new realm. I forget whether Pyrrhos of Epeiros had been killed by 270 and my OCD (Oxford Classical Dictionary) is in the office, not at home. If not perhaps Antigonos Gonatas could have a go. He was, after all, the saviour of the Greeks from the Celts.
 
In the 270 BC Ptolemy II hired 4,000 Gallic mercenaries, but not long after their arrival the Gauls allegedly plotted to seize Egypt, so Ptolemy II marooned them on a deserted island in the Nile River where they all died. What if the Gauls aren't found out and overthrow Ptolemy II? Killing Ptolemy II and taking over the capital is one thing, but can they conquer the rest of Egypt? What happens to the Egyptian holdings in Asia minor and the Levant?

See I am not even so sure that was the Gauls' plan at all. Most likely their plan was get paid and go home...less sun burn that way. Ptolemy II was more likely a bit short of the actual cash he owed them. Of course it might make future arrangements with mercenaries problematic if you get a rep for simply killing them when the contract expires.

So Ptolemy being a living god and therefore not bound by mere mortal concepts of truth and accuracy came up with a story that makes him the good guy.

As for the other theory that has already been explored above and basically without an inside man they would be stuffed.

The only way that this POD could lead to Gallic Kings of Egypt would be if the Gauls became some kind of Mamluk/Varangian guard to the Ptolomies and after many generations of insinuating themselves into the relevant positions of civil as well as military power then went on to displace the by now purely titular rulers.

Would still face an enormous backlash most likely.
 
My understanding Ptolemy II is that he had a healthy appetite when it came to women. It wouldn't take much. Just make him care about family a little more. Kill off his current male heirs and make him legitmise a daughter or bastard.

Then when the Guals come and launch their coup, their leader marries the daughter and thus his rule becomes legitimate. Whether or not he gains support relies more on how much money the leader has. Money and Men can buy a kingdom.
 
My understanding Ptolemy II is that he had a healthy appetite when it came to women. It wouldn't take much. Just make him care about family a little more. Kill off his current male heirs and make him legitmise a daughter or bastard.

Then when the Guals come and launch their coup, their leader marries the daughter and thus his rule becomes legitimate. Whether or not he gains support relies more on how much money the leader has. Money and Men can buy a kingdom.

I'm sorry, but Greeks and Egyptians would not accept Celts even with such a marriage. It's a question of culture, not money. It simply isn't plausible.
 
This would quickly become an interesting footnote of history. Any battle can conceivably be won and so perhaps they could take over Egypt in the very short term. They absolutely could not hold it though. They were too few and neither the Greeks nor Egyptians could ever accept them. It is very difficult to rule by pure force in the face of hostile populations. You need at least a modicum of political consent. So those are the domestic objections. In terms of international reactions, the Seleucids would annex anything they could get troops to and quite certainly attempt to invade Egypt, per the Syrian Wars. Also, the situation would attract military adventurers from the Hellenic World to carve out a new realm. I forget whether Pyrrhos of Epeiros had been killed by 270 and my OCD (Oxford Classical Dictionary) is in the office, not at home. If not perhaps Antigonos Gonatas could have a go. He was, after all, the saviour of the Greeks from the Celts.
Pyrrhus died in 272, though if you could keep him alive for 2 years, he has blood ties with Ptolemaic Egypt which he could use to justify a claim on the kingdom. As for Antigonus Gonatas, Makedon was simply too drained of manpower by this time. Even by the time of Philip II they could only muster a phalanx of around 20,000 and that's after gathering just about every soldier they could.
 
Pyrrhus died in 272, though if you could keep him alive for 2 years, he has blood ties with Ptolemaic Egypt which he could use to justify a claim on the kingdom. As for Antigonus Gonatas, Makedon was simply too drained of manpower by this time. Even by the time of Philip II they could only muster a phalanx of around 20,000 and that's after gathering just about every soldier they could.

Right. Yes, I wondered about Gonatas. He would still have been consolidating his hold on Macedonia too. Remember though that many Macedonians would have been serving in the Ptolemaic army as mercenaries, per the SOP of the Ptolemaic and Seleucid kingdoms.
 
I'm confused by some of the responses here.

The Ptolemies, and their ruling class, were a thin veneer over the native Egyptian culture. The locals stood for it, because they weren't organized and the Ptolemies crushed revolts.

If the Celts decapitated the Ptolemaic leadership, and appealed to the local Egyptians, I could see them holding out. If you were a native, would you rather have a foreign dynasty that considered you barbarians, or one that married into your leading families and started assimilating - and who desperately need your support?

It would be ... very, very tricky to pull off. But I imagine the other Diadochoi states might even give subtle support - get the Ptolemies out of the game for a while, and take over their conquests (in the Levant, Cyprus, wherever).


The only way they survive more than 1 generation or so, is if they are able to pull off some cultural fusion, marry into the local ruling class, encourage Hellenic studies and commerce, but not military, etc. As I say, tricky. But, IMO, not impossible.
 
I'm confused by some of the responses here.

The Ptolemies, and their ruling class, were a thin veneer over the native Egyptian culture. The locals stood for it, because they weren't organized and the Ptolemies crushed revolts.

If the Celts decapitated the Ptolemaic leadership, and appealed to the local Egyptians, I could see them holding out. If you were a native, would you rather have a foreign dynasty that considered you barbarians, or one that married into your leading families and started assimilating - and who desperately need your support?

It would be ... very, very tricky to pull off. But I imagine the other Diadochoi states might even give subtle support - get the Ptolemies out of the game for a while, and take over their conquests (in the Levant, Cyprus, wherever).


The only way they survive more than 1 generation or so, is if they are able to pull off some cultural fusion, marry into the local ruling class, encourage Hellenic studies and commerce, but not military, etc. As I say, tricky. But, IMO, not impossible.

Except, sure, you've killed off the immediate Ptolemaic family, but it doesn't change the geopolitical situation-there are still thousands of Greek soldiers (and settlers) in Egypt. There's still Antiochus who will be itching to jump on this opportunity and take at least all of Palestine, if not push into Egypt himself. The First Syrian War ended only a year previously. Then there's the fact that the Egyptians were not opposed to the Ptolemies yet. Ptolemy I bent over backwards to place himself on good terms with the Egyptians and gain their goodwill and show he was willing to respect their customs and traditions. It was later Ptolemies that started governing in a way that agitated the Egyptians. That was began under Ptolemy II, but by 270 there is still high support among Egyptians for the Ptolemies.

Then there's the fact if the Egyptians are going to rise up, they certainly aren't going to accept a group of Gallic mercenaries who likely had no central organized leadership, as their rulers...especially when those Gauls number only 4,000 and have already won themselves the enmity of the entire Greek population in the region (and the Seleucids to boot), and have about a 0% chance of surviving anyway. At that point, if they are going to try and overthrow the Ptolemies for good, they are going to put their own rulers on the throne.
 
4,000 hardened soldiers would not have difficulty finding native allies/securing a hold on their own turf of territory. Mid to long-term success would be impossible without the adoption of both Egyptian and Greek elements, as has been pointed out. Marriage to the dying Arsinoe II or the child Berenice (future Berenic Phernophorus) might be of some use, though neither offer great prospective of half-Ptolemaic heirs being born to the Gallic Pharaoh.
 
How? Where from? The Greeks would sink any such flotilla even were it possible - a dubious possibility at best.

I'm talking about the Tectosages and other tribes that migrated into Anatolia. Not using this POD maybe these tribes are somehow repelled and they have to keep migrating they migrate through Syria and Judea before finally arriving at the Nile Watershed.
 
More then likely he marooned them on the island because he didnt want to pay them or they asked for more money.

While an interesting concept I do have to agree the Gauls would be in no position to see themselves conquer everythig without outside support. Outside support would never occur.

The Gauls were used a lot by not just the Ptolemies though they had the biggest number of mercenaries. Any major attempt by the Gauls would likely create a backlash in other places or the Ptolemies would just bring in more Gauls who have a better offer.
 
Top