WI: Galicia had ultimately joined Portugal instead of Spain?

Though I don't know if it would be necessary given the relative similarity and presumably better relations shared between the two kingdoms but I defer to your better knowledge of the Iberian peninsula.
Pretty much this. Galician kingship wasn't overall that differant from other kingships in Northern Spain. Different cultures would make it interesting regarding the possibility of an identirary cristallisation, but no more than Navarre or Aragon after their unification.

So Alfonso's position isn't quite hopeless but it's extremely difficult. Though it would probably buy Portugal time enough to incorporate the Galicians.
It would be far less an incorporation of Galicia as such, than Galicia as part of the whole Castillan ensemble, whom regions as Castilla and Andalusia would have a far more important weight.

What would the Galicians think of this situation? Before and after the union with Portugal?
Well, it'd depend a lot from how Portugal act. The elites probably felt being Castillans of the Kingdom of Galicia, rather than plain Galicians or Castillans.
As for populations, their opinion would have been close to irrelevant.

It would all go down to how Galician nobility would place itself during the war. It seems that some leaned toward Juanista side, as other nobles bordering Portugal. So in the immediate aftermath, it shouldn't be an issue.

Eventually...Hard to say. I don't think that Alfonso would have tried to fully integrated Castille (or what he would have taken of, it's not improbable to think Ferdinand would have salvaged part of the kingdom) to Portugal, so the maintain of a distinct identity within Castille, itself distinct from Portugal.

The region may suffer from Portugal rivality when it came to trade, fishing and exploration; but I'm not sure it would have been enough to provoke a staunch reject itself that wouldn't have been backed by a more general Castillan one.

How interested would France be later on after he's had time to stabilize? And for that matter how would Portuguese foreign relations be like with other kingdoms?
To win the war, Portugal would have to really boost his diplomacy to begin with.

As for France ; its main opponent in the region would be still Aragon, but it's going to be hard to have Portugal choosing over its alliance with England and its one with France. All depends of the threat represented by Ferdinand. More important it is, more likely the continuation of French-Castillan alliance.

If Portugal-Galicia remains definitely in English alliance, France is going to be more wary. Maybe not up to ally with Aragon (except if it's weakened enough in Mediterranean sea), but going back to the old "Satellize Navarre and support pro-France nobles in Castille" tactics.

Portugal is going to be a bit on the edge there, and would have to decide eventually.

I wouldn't mind some of those French and Spanish titles?
On the war, this article is probably the most concise while complete.
- Histoire du Portugal, by Albert Bourdon, that ends by talking as much about Castille.
- This article, actually a summary of a book, is concise as well on early Isabel's reign
- Histoire médiévale de la péninsule ibérique, by Adeline Rucqoi.

What did you think of the True Eurasian's idea?
Well, I tried to tell then that I wasn't really enthusiast going trough a wall of text to understand the points. Sorry.
 
Sorry for the my absence. Mid-terms have come with all that it entails.

Alright sounds reasonable. So what's the title of a Portuguese prince anyway?

It would be far less an incorporation of Galicia as such, than Galicia as part of the whole Castillan ensemble, whom regions as Castilla and Andalusia would have a far more important weight.

I'm sorry but I think that I've forgotten which regions we were talking about here. I think I'm going to need to refresh my memory of this bit. Wait we were talking about Juana's rights to her kingdom, right? And could you explain the Castilla and Andalusia bit? Would Portugal actually be able to take either one or both? Actually how would this entire situation affect the Reconquista? Which will begin 20 yrs from now if I'm not mistaken.

Eventually...Hard to say. I don't think that Alfonso would have tried to fully integrated Castille (or what he would have taken of, it's not improbable to think Ferdinand would have salvaged part of the kingdom) to Portugal, so the maintain of a distinct identity within Castille, itself distinct from Portugal.

What would Afonso have been able to realistically take and Ferdinand have been able to salvage? Just how different are the Portuguese and Castilian cultures from each other? And would this union effect a small change in the Portuguese-Castillian languages? This would pretty much end up like Spain then? At least with several distinct identities in one Country.

To win the war, Portugal would have to really boost his diplomacy to begin with.

Who will he have to make political overtures to? The Papacy? The Holy Roman Empire?

As for France ; its main opponent in the region would be still Aragon, but it's going to be hard to have Portugal choosing over its alliance with England and its one with France. All depends of the threat represented by Ferdinand. More important it is, more likely the continuation of French-Castillan alliance.

What are the pros and cons of either Alliance? And when you say French-Castillian Alliance which Castilla would France side with? Juana's Castilla or Isabella's? Just how big of a threat was Aragon at this time and what could they do to get the French to support them? Would they even be willing to do so?

If Portugal-Galicia remains definitely in English alliance, France is going to be more wary. Maybe not up to ally with Aragon (except if it's weakened enough in Mediterranean sea), but going back to the old "Satellize Navarre and support pro-France nobles in Castille" tactics.

Though this seems to imply that the French wouldn't ally with them anyway. In this scenerio are the French more likely to just mess around with the Castillians, Aragonese and Navarrese than get actively involved? What kind of support are the English likely to offer the Portuguese? Especially if France sides with Aragon-Castille?

Thanks for the Articles. I'll read them as soon as school permits.

Yeah, it really is a huge wall of info. But I read it on my phone so I was able to read it in one go.
 
What if instead of Portugal ruling over Galicia what about a Galician king ruling over Portugal?
 
I'm not so sure about that. You should probably ask LSCatalina about it. Though the prompt is a Portuguese dominated union with Galicia or rather Portuguese initiated one. But it would probably depend on the date of said union. As well as on whether the Portuguese nobility were willing to accept it. Which they may but it may be harder if Portugal is doing well economically.
 
I think the best possible way to unify Galicia with Portugal after the latter is a Kingdom would be during the reigns of Ferdinand III or Alfonso X where Leon and Galicia were split off albeit with varying degrees of vassality to Castile.
Perhaps the de la Cerdas are more successful and we get longer lasting Kingdoms of Leon and Galicia that would ally with and marry into Portugal against Castile.
 
Alright sounds reasonable. So what's the title of a Portuguese prince anyway?
As far as I know, there wasn't a title tied up with portuguese heirs before the XVIIth century.

I'm sorry but I think that I've forgotten which regions we were talking about here. I think I'm going to need to refresh my memory of this bit.
I supposed you were talking about the possibility of fusing Portugal and Galicia trough Portuguese-Castillan unification. I'd think that not only Galicia would probably remain its own crown, as not pissing too much on local nobility, but probably considered as a crown of Castille up to a further administrative unification akin to IOTL that happened in the XIXth century.

Wait we were talking about Juana's rights to her kingdom, right? And could you explain the Castilla and Andalusia bit?
Essentially that Galicia at least at medium term, would be considered as Portuguese than Castille and Andalusian crowns, meaning unified with but not within.

Would Portugal actually be able to take either one or both?
It wouldn't be impossible, but would ask for more than the historical half-assed attempt.

Actually how would this entire situation affect the Reconquista? Which will begin 20 yrs from now if I'm not mistaken.
(I suppose you meant "end")
Not much. Grenada was living on borrowed time since once century, being a Castillan and Merinid vassal, hooking thanks to fortification and inner troubles in Castille.

What would Afonso have been able to realistically take and Ferdinand have been able to salvage?
Depends a lot. I wouldn't see Ferdinand, in the case of a victorious enough Alfonso to take Castille, managing to salvage more than Mediterranean regions (such as Murcia).

Just how different are the Portuguese and Castilian cultures from each other?
At this point, they are clearly distinguished linguistically, "ideologically" (without entering in a pointless debate about the lyric nature of Galaïco-Portuguese litterature and the more epic of the Castillan) and more importantly maybe : politically (Portugal was "more" feudal than Castille in many regards, maybe more unified administrativly : at the contrary of Castillan crowns, the kingship of Algraves was undistinguishable administrativly from Portugal).

I'd tend to say it was more distinct than Aragon, that at least beneficied from a same dynasty.

And would this union effect a small change in the Portuguese-Castillian languages?
Most probably, but not world-shattering changes, at least in the foreseeable future. Catalan didn't impacted much on Castillan (less than Basque did, for instance), but the reverse was true. It depends who would be the senior partner of the unified peninsula, and it would probably gets to influence the junior one (without talking of a more portuguese-leaning Galician).
Maybe it could butterfly away later Basque influences (such as jota), but I'm not too sure about it.

Giving the absence of Castillan/Portuguese rivalty in Atlantic and African coast, maybe a Portuguese cultural hegemony in western Moroccoean coast and Atlantic Islands?

This would pretty much end up like Spain then? At least with several distinct identities in one Country.
Probably, and not only based on languages.

Who will he have to make political overtures to? The Papacy? The Holy Roman Empire?
Earlier ouvertures to France and pointing out "We're a valuable ally! Seriously!". Papacy wouldn't hurt, would it be only to negociate a compromised peace (and maybe piss on Aragon's mediterranean policy even more than with only a French alliance).
Preventing England to go bonkers would help but it would ask for a different PoD. Apart from that : Portugal is a bit geographically isolated, so there's only so far diplomatic ressources they could get.

What are the pros and cons of either Alliance?
France : allying yourself with the big blue blob may be useful, but may be risky. Once Valois would have managed to keep Aragon meddling with their interests, a Portuguese-Castillan alliance (critically considering the Portuguese traditional alliance with England) may appear as problematic.
I wouldn't be surprised to see Valois supporting a Castillan pretender.

Papacy : damn unstable diplomatically. Not only it depends a lot on who is elected (and depends on the favour of ones or another), but you have to peon Papacy more than you should like.
And when you say French-Castillian Alliance which Castilla would France side with? Juana's Castilla or Isabella's?
The latter : French Kings couldn't be bothered with a super-duper Aragon.

Just how big of a threat was Aragon at this time and what could they do to get the French to support them? Would they even be willing to do so?
Mediterranean hegemon; nothing; nope.
In this scenerio are the French more likely to just mess around with the Castillians, Aragonese and Navarrese than get actively involved?
Annoying the hell out of Aragon would be the priority, secure for their sphere of influence Navarre a bonus.

What kind of support are the English likely to offer the Portuguese? Especially if France sides with Aragon-Castille?
At this point, England have enough of problems to deal at home. Eventually, I could see whoever takes the lead trying to revive the traditional alliance, with Portuguese being content enough to have someone to side against possible French involvement.
 
I think the best possible way to unify Galicia with Portugal after the latter is a Kingdom would be during the reigns of Ferdinand III or Alfonso X where Leon and Galicia were split off albeit with varying degrees of vassality to Castile.
Perhaps the de la Cerdas are more successful and we get longer lasting Kingdoms of Leon and Galicia that would ally with and marry into Portugal against Castile.

That sounds cool, if it unified Leon, Galicia and Porto it would be much more like a Kingdom of Lusitania.
 
I think the best possible way to unify Galicia with Portugal after the latter is a Kingdom would be during the reigns of Ferdinand III or Alfonso X where Leon and Galicia were split off albeit with varying degrees of vassality to Castile.
It would imply a really weakened Leon-Castille. Galicia, Leon, Castille kingship were seen as somehow related to the same power, not entierly independent kingdoms (and eventually not one of these managed to do it, their kings being focused on gathering back the crowns on their head).

You had political opposition between these kingdoms, but it was more a struggle for hegemony rather than defending separate identities.

Assuming Fernando, the son of Alfonso X, is still alive by his father death. Maybe you could have two Fernando, one king of Galicia/Leon and the other of Castille, but it would probably led to some infighting at least at first on the really blurry succession it would have implied (I don't think the historical agreement would have worked there)

It doesn't help that Portugual was on an ongoing crisis (economical and political) at this time, unable to really take action in Castille.
Let's assume Alfonso II replaces Sanche earlier (or that Sanche dies). It may help a bit, but Portugal and Algraves would be still the main focus of the king for a while (you had a conflict between Portugal and Castille, but really more about these regions).

The closest thing I could see would be a matrimonial union between Portugal and Leon/Galicia leading to a personal union eventually, but giving the relative geopolitical disinterest (while, granted, it may change once the union is enacted) giving up Leon and Asturias and keeping Galicia as a separate kingship. Having the kingship of Portugal, Algraves and Galicia would be then doable, but I suspect Algravi nobility (critically with the less interesting geopolitical twist it implies) would ask loudly for their own "administrative" crown as Galicia.

The PoD would then no really grand anything directly, but would open possibilities.
 
Top