WI: French Suborbital spaceflight program

With a POD in 1940 (I don't think it matters), make an enduring space program by the French that is about a human suborbital spaceflight program. Actual orbital spaceflight will be awesome, but I'll try this first.
 
The French would certainly have the ego to think they could do it after the war. The old Colonial Superpowers all had egos, but France seemed to maintain a special ego in spite of political realities after WW2.

The problem becomes those realities. The Cold War is between the United States and the Soviet Union; they are the superpowers. France does not have a place on that tier, much as it may have desired to. France was steadily losing it's empire. And France was dealing, like the rest of Europe, with recovery and establishing stability in the wake of WW2 and during the early years of the Cold War. France lacked the prestige and need for a space program, and France would have economic difficulties which would complicate efforts.

So those are all issues.
 
Maybe, with a late POD, you could have France, somehow, break away from ESA. With cooperation with Russia and maybe the remaining members of ESA, France might end up with her own manned space program.

You'd still need some weird political and business PODs, but it might be worth a shot.
 
With a POD in 1940, you could avoid the fall of France; this might give France a better economic position in the postwar period, allowing it to fund an independent space program.
 

Pangur

Donor
Marcel Dassault may have been capable to producing a sub orbital system. So just maybe have the German invasion of France defeated and then a successful invasion of Germany by mainly French forces you may be able to keep France as a near super power and so have the money and what not to pursue a space full on space programme (capturing Von Braun might help as well)
 

Delta Force

Banned
During the Cold War the French space program was the most developed after the American and Soviet ones. Diamant was the first space launch vehicle not built by the superpowers, and Astérix was the first satellite launched on a non-superpower rocket. The French also launched cats and monkeys into space and (absent malfunction) safely recovered them from orbit. They continue to be one of the largest contributors to the European Space Agency and have the fourth largest space program in the world (after the ESA), and the French firm Arianespace builds the Ariane rocket, one of the most successful commercial rockets in the world. The French also do quite well in other areas of aerospace. Airbus and Dassault build aircraft, SNECMA builds engines, and Thales builds electronics. They even have Areva and the highly developed French nuclear power and recycling industry if they want to do anything nuclear related with their space program. When it comes to the technological, scientific, and physical components of a space program, they can do anything the Americans, PRC, and Soviets/Russians can do.

The bigger issue is funding, as the French don't have an economy nearly as large as those other nations (except the pre-1990s PRC). I think the larger issue is if France can afford a space program and if they would actually go ahead with it. In some respects the British historically went to greater lengths with their vanity projects than the French until the economic reality hit them around the mid to late 1960s. France may have been losing their empire during the Cold War, but economically they were rising while the United Kingdom was falling. I can't find the statistics, but I think the French were also doing fairly well in terms of debt and deficits, so they could spend more without having to worry about a currency or debt crisis.

The bigger issue is why the French would want to do something as expensive as a manned space program. As much as France desired prestige, all of their prestige projects were calculated. They built a large fleet in the 1950s and 1960s, but they didn't have a large fleet going into World War II and certainly didn't have a wave of war surplus to ride on. The aerospace projects they did were largely import substitution, but flexible enough to sell well in many countries or required for France's nuclear deterrent (which was also useful for maintaining France's standing relative to the British and defending against threats to the East). The Hermes program of the 1970s would have put French astronauts in space and was supposed to help industry, but I think even that was a prestige program aimed at building a European (or Continental/French) alternative to the American and Soviet programs. The British couldn't justify it even for prestige reasons (prestige takes second place to real economic and defense necessities), but the French could. A Western European didn't even go into space until Jean-Loup Chrétien did in 1982, so it gives the France the equivalent of a nice car they can drive their friends around in.

In short, this is totally something France can physically and fiscally accomplish, and it would fit with French diplomacy in the Cold War. After the Cold War it starts to require more of an economic basis. Even during the Space Shuttle era with Western astronauts able to fly with the United States, there would still be room within French policy for a minishuttle.
 
(I know this thread is 18 months old)

No real need for an early POD.

France did have a program sending cats and rats on suborbital flights using Veronique sounding rockets; most of them survived. Around 1961-1963.

Take it from there, and use the L.95 launcher* as proposed as an Europa-1 alternative in 1968 (four Amethyste/L17 as first stage, Coralie as second stage). Should be sufficient for a Mercury-like suborbital program by the mid 70s.

This program would then probably die after a few flights by the end of the 70s on the decision whether to continue with an orbital flight or whether to instead fly on Intercosmos (as OTL). The clustered L.95 referred to in the linked 1968 article as a possible future development - or alternatively the equal-payload Ariane 1 - should have been able to boost a Mercury equivalent (plus another 600 kg as a orbital support module or something like that) with a third stage into LEO btw.

* http://www.flightglobal.com/FlightPDFArchive/1968/1968-1 - 0133.PDF
 
i play with this idea and poste TL in 2007

here the single post

The 4 October 2007 is National holiday in France with 50 year of celebration first human in Space.

Louis Simonet historical fight on board a R-3 (Mach 3 reconnaissance version of Super V-2)
is for to Day Standart only a Suborbital Flight, but it chance the World forever.

Background: France Super V-2 Program.
The French Fourth Republic was established after World War II
the new President Charles de Gaulle gave Order for Develpoment of the Atombomb and Carrier system like V-2 Rocket

over thirty German engineers for this purpose "recruited" and parts for 30 V-2 rockets were "collected" Germany !

from 1946 to 1952 the German workt in L.R.B.A by Vernon on developed french version of German A9, called project 4211.

1950 a Technical Demonstator "Veronique" Launch
1952 the First version the R-1 made Test launch in Algeria
beating the French project 4212 "EOLE" (explode on Launchs pad)
because project 4212 fiasco the French Military gave order to stop R-2 Version (a V-2 with liquid oxygen and kerosene)
and use only Propellants nitric acid and kerosene Rockets

to 1955 L.R.B.A developed the R-2M
wingt A9 with Solid Rocket Booster on both sides and a Ramjet engine.

the L.R.B.A Management proposed the french President
to use a modified R-2M (bigger Booster and Veronique as Upper stage)
for the Launch of the First Satellite

the french President take that opportunity happly. in case the Test of first French Atombomb fails. and trouble in French Indochina...

so End The Year of 1955 with two Bangs
The First Satellite "Veronique" Singing the national anthem "La Marseillaise" from Tape.
And the Ka-boom on Reggane testside making Fench to Nuklear Power.

the Reaction of USA, USSR, England, Germany was Almost Histerical

Nikita Khrushchev reacted furiously on news French could attack USSR with Atomic wapons in 3 Minutes!

The USA and USSR start Fast program to launch There Satellite
ending both ending in disaster in 1956
because Veronique, President Eisenhower lost the election 1956 against Democrat Adlai Stevenson II

until 1957 France start next surprise the R-3 A Manned reconnaissance Rocket with Mach 3 powered by ramjet after Launch.

the unmanned Test Launch on 4 august 1957 brought the R-3 on high of 90 Km.
on 4 October second R-3 was launch with Louis Simonet on board, to high to 102 km and speed of Mach 3.

Source on real Super V-2 Program
http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/superv2.htm
 
During the Cold War the French space program was the most developed after the American and Soviet ones. Diamant was the first space launch vehicle not built by the superpowers, and Astérix was the first satellite launched on a non-superpower rocket. The French also launched cats and monkeys into space and (absent malfunction) safely recovered them from orbit. They continue to be one of the largest contributors to the European Space Agency and have the fourth largest space program in the world (after the ESA), and the French firm Arianespace builds the Ariane rocket, one of the most successful commercial rockets in the world. The French also do quite well in other areas of aerospace. Airbus and Dassault build aircraft, SNECMA builds engines, and Thales builds electronics. They even have Areva and the highly developed French nuclear power and recycling industry if they want to do anything nuclear related with their space program. When it comes to the technological, scientific, and physical components of a space program, they can do anything the Americans, PRC, and Soviets/Russians can do.

The bigger issue is funding, as the French don't have an economy nearly as large as those other nations (except the pre-1990s PRC). I think the larger issue is if France can afford a space program and if they would actually go ahead with it. In some respects the British historically went to greater lengths with their vanity projects than the French until the economic reality hit them around the mid to late 1960s. France may have been losing their empire during the Cold War, but economically they were rising while the United Kingdom was falling. I can't find the statistics, but I think the French were also doing fairly well in terms of debt and deficits, so they could spend more without having to worry about a currency or debt crisis.

The bigger issue is why the French would want to do something as expensive as a manned space program. As much as France desired prestige, all of their prestige projects were calculated. They built a large fleet in the 1950s and 1960s, but they didn't have a large fleet going into World War II and certainly didn't have a wave of war surplus to ride on. The aerospace projects they did were largely import substitution, but flexible enough to sell well in many countries or required for France's nuclear deterrent (which was also useful for maintaining France's standing relative to the British and defending against threats to the East). The Hermes program of the 1970s would have put French astronauts in space and was supposed to help industry, but I think even that was a prestige program aimed at building a European (or Continental/French) alternative to the American and Soviet programs. The British couldn't justify it even for prestige reasons (prestige takes second place to real economic and defense necessities), but the French could. A Western European didn't even go into space until Jean-Loup Chrétien did in 1982, so it gives the France the equivalent of a nice car they can drive their friends around in.

In short, this is totally something France can physically and fiscally accomplish, and it would fit with French diplomacy in the Cold War. After the Cold War it starts to require more of an economic basis. Even during the Space Shuttle era with Western astronauts able to fly with the United States, there would still be room within French policy for a minishuttle.

If the French pull out of Algeria earlier, say 5-years that will allow a considerable decrease in their army in the second half of the 1950s. An earlier start on their rocket program can be made with some of the money saved. (Or if it was started in the middle 1950s speed it up.)

Asterisk would then be launched on Diamant A in 1960 and French SLBMs and IRBMs would enter service 5 years earlier too.

Then they could proceed to develop a Viking class rocket engine to replace the British RZ-2 on the Europa family of launchers by 1970. There was a proposal for a Europa launcher with strap-on boosters that could launch a Gemini type space craft.

So I think they could have the capability to launch a Gemini-class spacecraft in the first half of the 1970s and they would pay for it by not joining the Concorde project.
 
Other possibility : have France deal more successfully with its colonies (keeping Indochina is impossible, but with a 1940 POD you have 15 years for butterflies to turn Algeria around). It gives them an equator launching pad in Congo.
the Francophonie becomes a tighter version of the British Commonwealth (perhaps snatching Québec away).
ITTL the French might end up having their own space program, as having a large source of oil (Algeria, Chad), Uranium (Niger, France), Gold (Mali, French Guyana) and the rest can fund development of West Africa, whose economy would be large enough to pay for a space program. It would hardly be on par with the URSS or the USA, but the ESA would be little more than the French Comité à l'Exploration Spatiale (analog to CEA). Maybe in the late 1970s they can find some disappointed American rocket scientists (fall of fundings to NASA) to land on the Moon themselves, or even Mars on the long-term.
 
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