WI: French HRE instead of German

Then could Charles the Bald and Louis the Stammerer keeping the Imperial Crown be a prerequirement to the development of a French HRE?
Alone? No. The transmission of imperial title was a pong game between carolingian dynasty member until it went void, and one could keep the imperial title without being obeyed at all (Charles III is a good exemple, having all his other titles being stripped out)

It would be a matter of keeping the imperial title out of others, undergoing structural changes, and keeping enough power for being hegemonic enough to form an HRE-like.

I think that *HREmperors have better chances not doing that in the same row.

Or was the fact the HRE formed in Germany and the last Caroligian Emperors were from East Francia just a coincidence?

You'll notice that past Charles III, all emperors are chosen outside carolingian dynasty (save Arnulf, but barely as it was probably a bastard) even if having families ties to carolingians.

There common link isn't that they were king of Germany, but kings of Italy : at this time, imperial title was tied up to italian kingship and was given by the pope in order to gain local help in Italy above all other concerns.

Of course, german kings had a better chance on this as they had a direct access to Italy and had less challenging internal situation, when western frankish kings weren't even able to get in southern Gaul by this point.
 
I picture a FHRE from the Pyrinees to the Rhine and to Rome. Is that possible, eventually?

What about England? If a William situation shows up, then England would be de-facto a vassal of the Emperor.
 
Eventually, though at the time of Charles the Bald and Louis the German they were able to obtain concessions from each other.
IMHO, if one wants West Francia to keep Italy and the Imperial throne, then granting East Francia the whole of Lotharingia (re-uniting the West Francian share with the East Francian share) seems to be a plausible compromise.

Maybe eventually West Francia might be able to force a (slightly?) more favourable follow up treaty, which would grant the East Francian share of Upper Burgundy (gained at the treaty of Meerssen) to West Francia. Probably after a renewed conflict over Lotharingia (with Upper Burgundy) and Italy (with Lower Burgundy). Finally West Francia would have gained most (Italy and Burgundy), but East Francia won't be totally left empty handed (Lotharingia).
 
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But East Francia still gets Bavaria, plus expansion into the pagan east, and that should be enough
 
They already had Bavaria...
It isn't that they were that different in military potential. West Francia will be more tied up in Italy ITTL, then East Francia could 'easily' threaten West Francia proper. Thus IMHO a settlement, where West Francia cedes a little (the rest of Lotharingia) to gain more (Italy and (most of) Burgundy, IMO seems plausible.
 
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With help with some maps I found online (albeit from) I made some rough sketches about my proposal:

Before an FHRE:

BeforeFHRE.png
 
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A settlement after a conflict with East Francia over the disputed lands (Italy, Lotharingia & Burgundy) and FHRE has been established. Though as noted I can see Upper Burgundy being lost eventually. Not to mention that ITTL Burgundy probably will be integrated in West Francia, like how Lotharingia was integrated in East Francia.

CarolingianFHRE.png
 
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Though eventually IMHO it could be settled like this; claims on Italy and Lotharingia might exchanged, but Burgundy could have been left disputed.

CarolingianFHRElater.png
 
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why cant FHRE get Lorhringia too...

OTL HRE got pretty much everything but West Francia


They might keep their share of Lotharingia, but I doubt that they will get all of it right away (if at all).
The OTL HRE didn't really get Burgundy until the 11th century, whereas these maps are based on the 9th century and a PoD there.

In other words West Francia would get Burgundy sooner, something IOTL East Francia didn't get (all of it) right away (that soon).

Anyway regarding the existing conflicting claims both East Francia and West Francia had, IMHO exchanging and recognizing claims on respectively Italy and Lotharingia, IMHO in total would be West Francian win (a whole kingdom in exchange for a share of another kingdom).
Again IMHO the only better scenario for West Francia, certainly short term, would be West Francia gains Italy and Lower Burgundy and keeps their share of Lotharingia.
Though as noted in my previous posts in find that less plausible, given their respective military strengths; OTOH it IMHO is more plausible than West Francia conquering the whole of Lotharingia and Upper Burgundy soon after gaining (or even in the same period) Italy and Lower Burgundy.

Finally the first map shows the situation, before Charles the Bald succeeded in Italy and Lower Burgundy. IOTL that was countered by East Francia invading West Francia proper.
 
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No. Even admitting a FHRE appearing that early as depicted by Naprimus (that, as I said above, this is really *really* unlikely for structural reasons), latin was already no longer the common speech.

By the VI century, people used what was called the "rusting language", no longer vulgar latin, but not yet romance languages. Lack of direct sources, we don't really know about it but think of hugely separated while still relativly tied dialects.

At the middle of X century, tough, romance language began to distinguish themselves (Oaths of Strasbourg marking the transition, while not being in french yet, but rather in gallo-romance rustic speech). First french, then occitan, then Spanish, then Italian. By the XI, all the rustic speeches eventually evolved into romance languages.
 
@ LSCatilina; so you suggest a PoD, after the Carolingian Emperors, so with an ''Italian'' (Guideschi, Bosonid or Unruoching) Emperor or the following interregnum, but before the Ottonians restored the Empire? So roughly 891 - 962, with the Interregnum being from 924 - 962.

Unless Charles the Simple, who ruled West Francia from 898 - 922 and Lotharingia from 911 - 919 (undisputed) or 923 (disputed) manages to gain the Empire, the division will roughly be as a depicted in my last map. East Francia most likely will also control Lotharingia, but West Francia will get all the rest, so West Francia, Italy and Burgundy. And given how secure the hold of Charles the Simple was on both the West Francian and the Lotharingian throne, that IMHO seems more likely too. (I don't think Charles the Simple would be the optimal candidate for the desired PoD.)

It might help, if the German Kingdom (East Francia & Lotharingia) are a bit longer preoccupied with the Magyars.
 
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@ LSCatilina; so you suggest a PoD, after the Carolingian Emperors, so with an ''Italian'' (Guideschi, Bosonid or Unruoching) Emperor or the following interregnum, but before the Ottonians restored the Empire? (So roughly 891 - 962)

No, I suggest a PoD during the Carolingian Empire that would have for consequences to nerf Germany (possibly separating it) and to limit french feudal fragmentation; in order to allow a western imperial restauration in the X century.

For instance, for my TL, I tought about having more "stem-duchies" like appearing in early Carolingian Francia, eventually helping that (with a PoD in the early VIII) in order to allow the establishment of a Gaul-based HRE.
 
There are more conceivable scenarios. The closest one I can think of, is what happened after the death of Louis the German in 876, when East Francia got divided amongst his three sons. However IOTL one year later in 877 Charles the Bald also passed away.

My suggestions would be more in line with a scenario, where Louis the German lives a bit longer (would, given his age not be much though) and manages to extract some compensation, even though overall Charles the Bald gains most. IOTL Louis the German whilst planning a military campaign.

OTOH if Charles the Bald, where to live somewhat longer, which since he is younger than Louis the German, seems doable, so he can pass the Imperial throne to one of his sons, that might work.

Though East Francia or the German Kingdom, probably will resurface* in some shape or form, with or without their share of Lotharingia** and Upper Burgundy (see the first map I posted, before Charles the Bald gained the Imperial Crown). (*= based on Carolingian inheritances) (**= given the Lotharingian that could really go either way)
 
Still any Pod before Christmas in the year 800 doesn't seem likely. IMHO most likely Charles the Bald and Louis the German divide up the Francia Media, possibly a bit earlier. IMHO that would make my suggested division (West Francia, Burgundy & Italy versus East Francia & Lotharingia) again a possibility. Both brother will have to gain something otherwise one of them might instead join forces with Francia Media and together they're powerful enough to defeat the one left alone.
Maybe even a PoD where OTL Lothar I dies before Louis the Pious. Charles the Bald did seem to be the favourite son of Louis the Pious, so Louis the German (which would be entitled to larger share after the death of his brother Lothar) might be forced into accepting such a division. OTOH that would mean passing over any potential son of Lothar, however if they would still be underaged, then like with the Children of Pepin of Aquitaine that might happen.

Anyway in both scenarios Charles the Bald and Louis the German will both get something more, given the desired outcome, if Charles the Bald and West Francia gain Italy and (by necessity) Burgundy, this will leave Louis the German and East Francia with Lotharingia. In any IMHO somewhat plausible and (albeit begrudgingly for Louis the German) acceptable partition deal for both. IMHO giving everything except East Francia to Charles the Bald would be 'wank-ish'. (Both divisions would (somewhat) resemble the last map I posted here.)

BTW Louis the German was married with a younger sister of the mother of Charles the Bald.
 
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