WI: French fleet not scuttled in Toulon.

During WWII, when the Nazis broke their armistice agreement and occupied Vichy France and advanced to the naval base in Toulon to seize the warships there. The French had 3 battleships, 1 seaplane carrier, 4 heavy cruisers, 3 light cruisers, 16 destroyers, 8 sloops, 13 torpedo boats, and 15 submarines. On November 27, 1942, the French scuttled their fleet to prevent the Germans from getting their hands on them.

My question is this: How would the balance of naval power in the Mediterranean have been affected in the Germans had been allowed to seize these ships. It would bolster an already powerful Kriegsmarine. The Italian Navy, a powerful force in the Med, was still in the game. In your minds, how would the Battle of the Mediterranean and the North Africa Campaign be affected?
 

sharlin

Banned
Probably not that much.

There was only 2 modern capital ships the Dunkirque and Strassbourg and as good as they were they did have issues.

The Germans would have to either crew them themselves or make their crews work the ship which would probably be a bad idea. So crewing them with germans is an immediate drain on personnel, you've got to familiarise yourself with the ship and how it works, plus EVERYTHING is in French. Every dial, lever, control...

The munitions would have to be made in French factories as the germans would not have the capacity to produce the 13 inch rounds for their main armament and standard german 5.9 and 8 inch shells would probably mangle the barrels of the french cruisers guns.
 
Probably not that much.

There was only 2 modern capital ships the Dunkirque and Strassbourg and as good as they were they did have issues.

The Germans would have to either crew them themselves or make their crews work the ship which would probably be a bad idea. So crewing them with germans is an immediate drain on personnel, you've got to familiarise yourself with the ship and how it works, plus EVERYTHING is in French. Every dial, lever, control...

The munitions would have to be made in French factories as the germans would not have the capacity to produce the 13 inch rounds for their main armament and standard german 5.9 and 8 inch shells would probably mangle the barrels of the french cruisers guns.

Well, the Germans had France. They could always use captured factories and slave labor. And I'm sure they could find someone who speaks French (probably a collaborator) to translate the controls. Plus, crewing the ships would take up a thousand or so men each, which was doable. If they really wanted to, they could have done it.
 

sharlin

Banned
Oh they probably could do it if they wanted, but it would mean you'd either take men from the Kriegsmarine or elsewhere to do so and Germany didn't have that many men to pass around.
 
During WWII, when the Nazis broke their armistice agreement and occupied Vichy France and advanced to the naval base in Toulon to seize the warships there. The French had 3 battleships, 1 seaplane carrier, 4 heavy cruisers, 3 light cruisers, 16 destroyers, 8 sloops, 13 torpedo boats, and 15 submarines. On November 27, 1942, the French scuttled their fleet to prevent the Germans from getting their hands on them.

My question is this: How would the balance of naval power in the Mediterranean have been affected in the Germans had been allowed to seize these ships. It would bolster an already powerful Kriegsmarine. The Italian Navy, a powerful force in the Med, was still in the game. In your minds, how would the Battle of the Mediterranean and the North Africa Campaign be affected?

I always wounder why the navy didnt run for North Africa when they heard that the German army was approaching
 
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