WI: French Fleet demobilized in French Indochina 1940

Partly inspired by the German's getting their hands on the French Fleet.

POD:
ARTICLE VIII. (German Terms to France)
The French war fleet is to collect in Cam-Ranh Bay, Indochina and under Japanese observers to demobilize and lay up—with the exception of those units released to the French Government for protection of French interests.
The German Government solemnly declares to the French Government that it does not intend to use the French War Fleet.
It further solemnly and expressly declares that it does not intend to bring up any demands respecting the French War Fleet at the conclusion of a peace.
All warships outside France are to sail to Indochina with the exception of that portion of the French War Fleet which shall be designated to represent French interests in Europe.​

Timeline:
Jun 22 1940 The British ambassador at Bordeaux, Sir Ronald Campbell, communicates these terms to London. British don't object as the ships are placed out of France far from Europe and are not under German and/or Italian control.
(The reality was that the original Article VIII had the fleet return to France to disarm under German/Italian control. The French insisted that the fleet disarm in African ports, the Germans agreed to the change but this wasn't communicated to the British who's Ambassador had already left France.)

Jun 25 Toulon units and Oran based Force du Raid sail for Dakar, French West Africa, Force X (1BB, 3CA, 1CL, 3DD) sails from Alexandra for Diego Saurez, Madagascar via Suez Canal.

Jun 27 GB seizes French ships in UK ports (2BB, DD's and subs including Surcouf).

July 3 French Navy ships begin to gather in Dakar. Leave on Jul 6.

July 10 - August 11 - Channel Battles phase of Battle of Britain

July 13 Ships arrive in Libreville, Gabon. Bearn, Emile Bertin and Jeanne d'Arc arrive from West Indies. Leave on Jul 16. Force X sails for Indochina.

July 24 Force X arrives Kam Rahn Bay via Saigon. Japanese officers oversee as ships are de-fueled and disarmed.

July 30 Japanese report that Kam Rahn Bay is an inadequate internment facility for French Fleet.

July 31 to 4 Aug Ships arrive Diego Saurez (this is 40 days from Toulon (minimum 29days @12 knots), The Russian Baltic Fleet took 53 days in 1904 and Operation Ironclad took 43 days from Clyde to Diego Saurez and that was an invasion)

Aug 12 to 23 Eagle Attack phase of Battle of Britain - main attack on RAF defences

20 Aug Ships sail for Saigon. Arrive 28 Aug. Japanese suggest Port Arthur to lay up ships.

Aug 24 to Sep 6 Airfield attacks phase of Battle of Britain

2 Sep Destroyers for Bases deal announced. 50 over age destroyers are to transfer to Britain from America.

7 Sep onwards - British towns and cities phase of Battle of Britain

9 Sep French Fleet sails for Port Arthur shadowed by USS Augusta and HMAS Australia.

21 Sep French Fleet of 7 BB, 1 CV, 7 CA, 11 CL, 46 DD and 31 SS anchors under the guns of Port Arthur.

27 Sep, Japan signs Tripartite Pact.

2 Oct, Vichy agree to the parole of 750 000 troops in German hands and repatriation of the bulk of the Navy's crews. Crews begin disembarkation for transfer via Trans Siberian Railway to France. Minimal crews and specialists left for security and maintenance. France basically trades captured personnel for ships just as the US trades ships for bases. What does Germany get from Japan as a counterpart to the US Destroyers for Bases deal?

Ships in Japanese hands:
5 BB, (Bretagne, Lorraine, Provence, Dunkerque, Strasbourg)
2 BB partially complete (Richelleu -95% and Jean Bart -70%)
1 CV (Bearn)
1 AV (Commandant Teste)
7 CA (Algerie, 4 Suffren Class, 2 Duquesne Class)
9 CL (3 Duguay Trouin Class, 6 La Galissoniere Class)
1 Training cruiser (Jean 'D Arc)
1 Fast minelayer (Emile Bertin)
26 Large DD (3 Chacal Class DD, 5 Guepard Class DD, 6 Aigle Class DD, 5 Vauqulin Class DD, 5 Le Fantastque Class DD, 2 Mogador Class DD)
16 DD (5 Bourrasque Class DD, 11 L'Adroit Class DD)
31 Large Submarines (24 Redoutable Class, 7 Requin class)
 
I'd say the ships are almost useless to the Japanese. They don't have enough fuel to run what they have already, and the French ships are very short-legged for the Pacific.
 

SsgtC

Banned
While I kinda doubt the French would agree to sending their entire fleet to Indochina (Algeria is far more likely as IOTL), having them sent to Port Arthur is bordering on ASB
 
It depends if France wants the release of PoWs (as in real life) as the war looks like it is going to keep going.
 
It depends if France wants the release of PoWs (as in real life) as the war looks like it is going to keep going.

So in exchange they sacrifice the only bargaining chip the French Fleet for 750,000 POWs who have nothing to do but cost Vichy money the Fleet is far far more useful for both negotiation and actual use than the POWs ever will
 
Cam Rhan Bay was a undersized a for the fleet. It was set up for a Asiatic or Esqadron Indochine. A handful of cruisers with destroyers and auxiliaries. Even supporting a mothballed fleet may have been a challenge.

Conversely Oran was a major support facility, & a number of smaller naval support stations were scattered along the North African littoral. In the aggregate the French North African naval bases could accommodate a large portion of the fleet. That included large scale support for the maritime aviation arm. All weather airfields, repair shops, parts depots, fuel storage... Indochina had some of that, but not at the same capacity.
 
It depends if France wants the release of PoWs (as in real life) as the war looks like it is going to keep going.

OTL the nazi government agreed to swap PoW for skilled French workers. The PoW often had the wrong skill sets/experience. The factory managers often preferred to pay a French machinist, millwright, welder... a wage & get twice the product as from a PoW. This PoW for worker swap was part of what the Collaborationists were later imprisoned or jailed for. Since much of French industry was idle during the Dark Years the French laborers were often willing. Guest Workers were treated far better than the forced labor from the prison camps and often had better food rations than they could get in France or Belgium.
 
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So in exchange they sacrifice the only bargaining chip the French Fleet for 750,000 POWs who have nothing to do but cost Vichy money the Fleet is far far more useful for both negotiation and actual use than the POWs ever will
Case Anton and its predecessor plan Operation Attila show that Vichy was powerless against Germany anyway and Vichy had to bankroll Germany's occupation until the peace was signed. If anything the French fleet was a stumbling block between Britain and Germany coming to peace and thus ending France's pain.
 
Cam Rhan Bay was a undersized a for the fleet. It was set up for a Asiatic or Esqadron Indochine. A handful of cruisers with destroyers and auxiliaries. Even supporting a mothballed fleet may have been a challenge.

Conversely Oran was a major support facility, & a number of smaller naval support stations were scattered along the North African littoral. In the aggregate the French North African naval bases could accommodate a large portion of the fleet. That included large scale support for the maritime aviation arm. All weather airfields, repair shops, parts depots, fuel storage... Indochina had some of that, but not at the same capacity.

There were plans to build up Cam Ranh Bay as the major French Pacific base, a French Singapore if you will. No one wants interned ships in commercial ports and cities - large numbers of disaffected sailors, probably low morale and even mutinous, let alone the clogging up of the harbor and the potential of a mass scuttle. The Pacific puts them out of Royal Navy reach as African ports can be hit while the RN stays close to the UK during the invasion threat.
 
I'd say the ships are almost useless to the Japanese. They don't have enough fuel to run what they have already, and the French ships are very short-legged for the Pacific.

Yes, most French ships have about 1/2 to 2/3 the range. In cruisers they are about the same as the older Japanese CL. It's 1940 and their oil hasn't been cut off yet.

Perhaps they could drop the Circle 5 Program of May 1941 and shift funding to refit the ships?
Total program covers 3BB, 2BC, 3CV, 1AV, 5CL, 47 Submarines, 32 Destroyers and escorts and auxilliaries
1 x Yamato Battleship (No. 797)
2 x A-150 “Super Yamato” Battleships (No 798 and No. 799)
2 x Type A Battlecruisers (Nos 795 to 796)
1 x Unryu Aircraft Carrier (No. 800)
2 x Kai-Taiho (G-14) Aircraft Carriers (No 801 and No 802)
1 x 11,000 ton Seaplane Tender (No. 809)
1 x Kai-Wakataka Netlayer (No. 819)
1 x Irako Supply Tanker (No. 845)
5 x Kai-Agano (C-44) Type B Cruisers (Nos 810 to 814)
1 x 6,800 ton Icebreaker (No. 846)
1 x Tsukushi Survey Ship (No. 847)
1 x Hashidate Gunboat (No. 867)
1 x I-400 Class Submarine (No. 714)
2 x I-9 Cruiser Submarines (Type A) (No. 700 and No. 701)
8 x I-15 Cruiser Submarines (Type B) (Nos. 702 to 709)
4 x I-46 Submarines (Nos. 710 to 713)
3 x I-351 Submarines (Nos. 730 to 732)
9 x RO-35 Submarines (Nos. 715 to 723)
10 x I-176 Submarines (Unknown Numbers)
9 x RO-100 Submarines (Unknown Numbers)
16 x Kai-Shimakaze Destroyers (No. 733 to 748)
16 x Kai-Akitsuki Destroyers (No. 770 to 785)
4 x Shumushu Escorts (Type A) (No. 790 to 793)
6 x 3,300 ton Seaplane Tenders (No. 803 to 808)
4 x Shokatu Escort Cruisers (No 815 to 818)
10 x No.19 Minesweepers (No. 820 to 829)
2 x Akashi Repair Ships (No. 840 and No. 841)
3 x Improved Kazahaya Supply Tankers (No. 842 to 844)
8 x Ajiro Minelayers (No. 850 to 857)
2 x Modified Nisshin Seaplane Carrier (No. 863 and No. 864)
2 x Modified Tsurugizaki Submarine Depot Ships (No. 865 and No. 866)
2 x Sumida Gunboats (No. 868 and No. 869)
9 x No.13 (CH-13) Subchasers (No. 870 to 878)
9 x 700 ton CH-60 Subchasers (No. 879 to 887)
2 x Tsugaru Minelayers​
 
So the British seize those French ships already in harbor, but allow other French ships to pass by the Suez Canal and Singapore without a hitch...
 
Heres a very different scenario, WI the French believe their fleet will be seized/sunk in a race between the Axis and British, so Petain orders what ships that can to US ports for internment. Making a hasty arraignment with Roosevelts government. I expect the Brits will see this as a solution, but the Axis leaders are liable to react badly.
 
Heres a very different scenario, WI the French believe their fleet will be seized/sunk in a race between the Axis and British, so Petain orders what ships that can to US ports for internment. Making a hasty arraignment with Roosevelts government. I expect the Brits will see this as a solution, but the Axis leaders are liable to react badly.
wasn't this presented as an alternative at Mers-el-Kebir ?
 
So the British seize those French ships already in harbor, but allow other French ships to pass by the Suez Canal and Singapore without a hitch...

Operation Catapult wasn't launched until July 3. In this TL Force X (the ships in Alexandria) are in the Indian Ocean and the ships at Oran are at Dakar, much further south. The need to attack them is gone, they is little chance of them falling into German or Italian hands. The Italians had suggested that the French Fleet go to Africa where their Libyan based army could take them - very optimistic.
 
wasn't this presented as an alternative at Mers-el-Kebir ?
Sailing to the French West Indies was included in the orders that French Admiral Darlan had given his ships but not to US ports. This option was in the ultimatum to the French commander at Mers-el-Kebir by the RN but was not communicated to French HQ.
 
July 24 Force X arrives Kam Rahn Bay via Saigon. Japanese officers oversee as ships are de-fueled and disarmed.

July 30 Japanese report that Kam Rahn Bay is an inadequate internment facility for French Fleet.
....
20 Aug Ships sail for Saigon. Arrive 28 Aug. Japanese suggest Port Arthur to lay up ships.
.... What does Germany get from Japan as a counterpart to the US Destroyers for Bases deal?

Ships in Japanese hands:
Why would anybody be happy with giving the ships to Japan?

French giving up ships that means they lose them potentially forever and lose any future bargaining chips...it also humiliates the French after all losing to Germany is on thing but Japanese officers telling them what to do?
Germany/Italy doesn't get them and this requires a level of inter axis help that was seldom achieved in OTL...
RN still doesn't like IJN getting them and what's to stop them being sold on to KM/RM?
US will be furious as it unbalances the pacific....
 
Sailing to the French West Indies was included in the orders that French Admiral Darlan had given his ships but not to US ports. This option was in the ultimatum to the French commander at Mers-el-Kebir by the RN but was not communicated to French HQ.

In the French West Indies they are under the watchful eye of the Americans, like the OTL ships that were there. Not as good as being in US ports but close, especially since the French colonies in the Caribbean were dependent on the US for food imports.
 
Indo-China as destination is highly impractical, as there were no ports large enough to facilitate all the ships (Worlds 5th largest fleet, remember!), besides there were no facilities to maintain these ships of rather complex type. (Which is why the French almost exclusively used more basical Sloops primarily there in the first place, besides an older light cruiser.)

A much more likely destination in a French controlled part of the world would have been either a North African Base, like Mers el Kebir, or Cassablanca, as there were facilities and space there to accomodate such large numbers of warships, besides far closer to France itself, allowing these relatively short ranged ships to get there without requiring assistance of the British (Fuel) or Suez Chanal locks.
 
Don't remember reading that. I can see the Brits being good with it.
It was option c of the ultimatum Admiral Somerville was ordered to give to the French, the other two being to either join the British in fighting on or interning the fleet in a British port and repatriating the crews to France.

Alternatively if you feel bound to stipulate that your ships should not be used against the Germans unless they break the Armistice, then sail them with us with reduced crews to some French port in the West Indies — Martinique for instance — where they can be demilitarised to our satisfaction, or perhaps be entrusted to the United States and remain safe until the end of the war, the crews being repatriated.
 
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