WI: Frederick VII produce a son

Valdemar II

Banned
What if Frederick VII of Denmark succed in producing a heir, could we avoid the Second Schleswig War and keep Schleswig, Holstein and Lauenburg in union with Denmark, how would this effect German unification?
 
Probably not - perhaps a war later than 1864.

Since the London agreement on Slesvig-Holstein Prussia had been doing everything it could to keep the question alive. Even if no Bismarck it would be kept alive.
Yes - we also did what we could pushing the limit in Slesvig in vain perception that WE beat the Prussians in 1850. If there ever was national desillution!

A side effect of Frederick VII having a son could be Danish siding against the Russians in the Crimean War because of no succession issue.
That would be an even worse boost to national perceptions of military prowess - WE beat the Prussians 1850 and the Russians 1856! What a tumble in 1864 or sometime thereafter.

IMO what would really help would be no Victoria but a Victor or Edward keeping Hanover in Personal Union with Britain. That would be some obstacle to Prussian designs on German hegemony. But get somebody to discuss that one seriously... :rolleyes:
 

Susano

Banned
Well, on your map, you had Schleswig-Holstein-Lauenburg not in union but annexed to Denmark, which is what propelled me to respod here ;) Because THAT doesnt work.

Annexing it means violating the London Tretay, and hence giving Prussia (if not as IOTL Prussia and Austria!) an excuse for declaring war on Denmark without British interference. And it take sonly one of the two great powers to beat Denmark... (and Im not so sure that even the British could do much in that case, anyways - as a naval power against a land power!). Now, of course, dynastic shuffling can mean Denmark doesnt try to annex Schleswig, but, yeah, it all hinges on that: Have them try it, and it happens as IOTL no matter the King. Have them not, and they can avoid it, no matter the King.
 
Well, on your map, you had Schleswig-Holstein-Lauenburg not in union but annexed to Denmark, which is what propelled me to respod here ;) Because THAT doesnt work.

Agree.

Have them not, and they can avoid it, no matter the King.

I don't think so - Prussia was on a collision course ever since 1850. It would only be a matter of time no matter what Denmark did.
 

Susano

Banned
I don't think so - Prussia was on a collision course ever since 1850. It would only be a matter of time no matter what Denmark did.
I dont think you can it say like that. Bismarck wanted to hijack German nationalism for Prussias gain, and the Schleswig-Holstein issue was a perfect opportunity. However, it was not a primary goal in itself, so he wouldnt screw over everything for it - meaning he would wait for some pretext.

Now, I dont know if some pretext can be engineered. I mean, if the Duke of Schleswig-Holstein ( ;) ) does anything in this capacity, we have a pretext, but its not a given he will. Theres no dire need for any reforms or anything, so in his role of Duke of Schleswig-Holstein he could just keep it down, so to say, not giving any pretexts. Of course, with that PoD, it depends on the character of the alternate King, which pretty much can be whatever the author wants it to be! ;)
 
IMO what would really help would be no Victoria but a Victor or Edward keeping Hanover in Personal Union with Britain. That would be some obstacle to Prussian designs on German hegemony. But get somebody to discuss that one seriously... :rolleyes:

Thanks for the idea. Bismarck is going to be very unhappy w/George IV's grandson Henry IX!
 
I dont think you can it say like that. Bismarck wanted to hijack German nationalism for Prussias gain, and the Schleswig-Holstein issue was a perfect opportunity. However, it was not a primary goal in itself, so he wouldnt screw over everything for it - meaning he would wait for some pretext.

Now, I dont know if some pretext can be engineered. I mean, if the Duke of Schleswig-Holstein ( ;) ) does anything in this capacity, we have a pretext, but its not a given he will. Theres no dire need for any reforms or anything, so in his role of Duke of Schleswig-Holstein he could just keep it down, so to say, not giving any pretexts. Of course, with that PoD, it depends on the character of the alternate King, which pretty much can be whatever the author wants it to be! ;)

But Bismarck only became Prussian premier in 1862 and there had been problems between Denmark and The German States in 1857-58, 1860, 1861 and in 1862 the British and the Prussians concepted the idea of a partition of Sleswig through a referendum.
Denmark didn't annex Sleswig and so violate the London conference of 1851-52 until 1864 when the new constitution was brought into effect on January 1. and Sleswig annexed to the Kingdom of Denmark.
It had the casus belli in 1858, 1860 and 1861, but Denmark had bowed to German pressure.
One of the major problems was of course the London agreement of 1851 in which the Ripe constitution of 1460 was adhered to that Slesvig and Holstein should remain "tosammen op ewige ungedeelt" (forever unseparated), that made it impossible for Denmark to incorporate Slesvig into the Kingdom. Another matter of concern was the language question with German being predominant in central and southern Slesvig making effectively any insistence of Denmark of using Danish for administration being against the London agreement thus giving Prussia a pretext for German Federation execution in the Duchies!
The other side of the coin was Danish efforts to make a useable constitution for Denmark and the Duchies which wasn't possible because of demands in the Duchies for representation on a scale identical to the Kingdoms and German support of this being in violation of the London agreement. I don't say the Danes didn't do theirs to make it run their way - they did, but didn't have the means (troops) to do it.
Big problem in Denmark was post 1848 the government was semi-democratic and wanted equal representation in parliament which the Ritterschaft of Slesvig and Holstein did not want as it would bar them from government of their lands!
In effect in order to maintain the Danish conglomerate state of this time you'd have to have a constituation making every part of the state equal of any other thus give the Kingdom the status of Lauenburg which was totally unacceptable to the Kingdom. BTW the government wouldn't allow the King to run the Duchies to his own designs because of the 1848 constitution so in effect you have an unsolvable situation with a semi-democratic Kingdom depending on equal representation counter still feudal Duchies ruled by the Ritterschaft.
Really I don't think you could arrange a pretext.
 
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