WI: Frederick Barbarossa doesn't drown during the Third Crusade

What were the chances of a successful coup against the Byzantine Emperor? Any chance of an alliance with Georgia, maybe as part of a Komnenos coup? Their queen was unmarried in 1190...
the problem isn't the conflict so much as the resolution. I can probably set up any number of coups, alliances, invasions etc. but the problem is figuring out the dynastic concerns. Namely who would be in a position to usurp a throne or two.
 
What were the chances of a successful coup against the Byzantine Emperor? Any chance of an alliance with Georgia, maybe as part of a Komnenos coup? Their queen was unmarried in 1190...
the problem isn't the conflict so much as the resolution. I can probably set up any number of coups, alliances, invasions etc. but the problem is figuring out the dynastic concerns. Namely who would be in a position to usurp a throne or two.

Tamar is still only 30 and Georgian ruling family women were famous for their beauty. I say go for it Freddy!

Oh, you probably meant one of the Trebizond Komnenai marrying her, didn't you?
 
Find a list of Byzantine generals. That'd be useful.

The grandsons of Andronicus I are too young as of the 1190s (the Trebizond Komennoi to be), if memory serves.

Finding other male Komnenoi might be easier said than done.
 
Tamar is still only 30 and Georgian ruling family women were famous for their beauty. I say go for it Freddy!

Oh, you probably meant one of the Trebizond Komnenai marrying her, didn't you?
Fred is a bit old for the queen.:p Also he's an icky Catholic, better to go for a descendant of the great Alexios and dispose of the flaccid Angeloi usurpers.


Find a list of Byzantine generals. That'd be useful.
Indeed, but that is easier said than done... not exactly something Wikipedia has.:p
**begins searching generals in list**

ETA: Well, not sure how old he was at the time, but John Komnenos the Fat seems like a good candidate; as he was behind an unsuccessful coup in 1201...
Maybe he could marry Tamar the Great? Though I'm not sure if she'd go through with it- Komnenos or not he's basically just a courtier (a la CK2's claimants in court). Doesn't mean she wouldn't go for it, and I definitely could see a marriage post-coup to shore up support. How this would be received in their respective courts is another matter entirely... that and I don't think the Georgians would be happy with a Castille style dynastic union vis a vis the Greeks, they're culturally and religiously close yes but not nearly THAT close... then again considering the Polish-Lithuanian Union...
The grandsons of Andronicus I are too young as of the 1190s (the Trebizond Komennoi to be), if memory serves.

Finding other male Komnenoi might be easier said than done.
Wasn't the ruler of Cyprus (well, until he crossed Richard the Lionheart) a member of the dynasty?
 
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Fred is a bit old for the queen.:p Also he's an icky Catholic, better to go for a descendant of the great Alexios and dispose of the flaccid Angeloi usurpers.

The flaccid Angeloi are descendants of the great Alexius too - via one of his daughters.

Indeed, but that is easier said than done... not exactly something Wikipedia has.:p
**begins searching generals in list**

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:12th-century_Byzantine_people

Easier than going through the list of generals.

How this would be received in their respective courts is another matter entirely... that and I don't think the Georgians would be happy with a Castille style dynastic union vis a vis the Greeks, they're culturally and religiously close yes but not nearly THAT close... then again considering the Polish-Lithuanian Union...

I don't see it happening. That happened for reasons unrelated here.

Wasn't the ruler of Cyprus (well, until he crossed Richard the Lionheart) a member of the dynasty?

I think so.

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/BYZANTIUM 10571204.htm#_Toc345952366

Here's a good way to trace the family tree.
 
The flaccid Angeloi are descendants of the great Alexius too - via one of his daughters.
Yep. Just saw that.

Well, all things considered a potential coup would come from the army. Might be easier to search for a general who happens to exist in the time frame, than a person in the 12th century (and we need the late 12th century) who happens to be a general or have connections or is very good at scheming etc...

I don't see it happening. That happened for reasons unrelated here.
True.
I still think a Georgian backed Komnenoi coup is the best bet. Though the two in Trebizond were like 8 at the time, a coup using them as figureheads isn't too outrageous.


I think so.

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/BYZANTIUM 10571204.htm#_Toc345952366

Here's a good way to trace the family tree.
Awesome, thanks.
 
Well, all things considered a potential coup would come from the army. Might be easier to search for a general who happens to exist in the time frame, than a person in the 12th century (and we need the late 12th century) who happens to be a general or have connections or is very good at scheming etc...

Well, the 12th century people list is shorter than the "Byzantine generals" list, so up to you.

True.
I still think a Georgian backed Komnenoi coup is the best bet. Though the two in Trebizond were like 8 at the time, a coup using them as figureheads isn't too outrageous.

This is Byzantium. Anyone in a position to take the throne can do it in his own name, and is more likely to attract support than if he's claiming to be doing it in the name of the grandsons of a reviled Emperor.

People claiming to be a now adult Alexius II are one thing, but this is another.

Leaving aside how something backed mostly by Georgia will be taken, as that's something no one tried OTL.


Awesome, thanks.

There are other relevant families, but this should help you find any surviving male Komnenoi.
 
Well, the 12th century people list is shorter than the "Byzantine generals" list, so up to you.



This is Byzantium. Anyone in a position to take the throne can do it in his own name, and is more likely to attract support than if he's claiming to be doing it in the name of the grandsons of a reviled Emperor.

People claiming to be a now adult Alexius II are one thing, but this is another.
Heh, you're right. Should have picked up on that.


Leaving aside how something backed mostly by Georgia will be taken, as that's something no one tried OTL.

Speaking of which, this guy was already in open revolt, though he was besieged at the time, if Freddy either shows up in Byzantium a bit (a few weeks) earlier, or he can hold out a few weeks longer....
 
You're impossible to please.:p

So other than this guy (who was imprisoned by the Bulgarians, then joined them when the emperor declined to ransom them) is my best bet just going with the pretender?

When are you looking to have the coup?

Basil Vatazes might be good (if he's not killed in battle). Didn't try OTL, but he might be good emperor material.

One of the Laskarids could be good.

There are probably others, but that's what I would nominate off the top of my head.
 
When are you looking to have the coup?

Basil Vatazes might be good (if he's not killed in battle). Didn't try OTL, but he might be good emperor material.

One of the Laskarids could be good.

There are probably others, but that's what I would nominate off the top of my head.
My initial thought is to have the tensions between Frederick and the Byzantines escalate even further into open warfare, with him potentially backing a rebel or usurper. Possibly involving them moving in on the Seljuks right alongside, or immediately after, Freddie moves through and takes Iconium. Alternatively Alexios being even more of an incompetent fool vis a vis Freddie (he attempted to renege on the military access treaty, leading to Fred planning to attack) by altering the pace of events somewhat to prevent him from fixing the mess prior to a conflict or coup.

I assume that there were very strong anti-Latin/West sentiments in the court and throughout the empire in general; is there any plausible chance of someone seeking limited backing of say Frederick against Angelos or (a decade or so later on) from, say, the Venetians or Genoese against Egypt/the Turks? Or are their relations well and truly shot to shit, all bridges burned etc? I feel like if any would-be emperor got too cozy with westerners he'd have an angry mob catapulting a new emperor to power within the week.
 
My initial thought is to have the tensions between Frederick and the Byzantines escalate even further into open warfare, with him potentially backing a rebel or usurper. Possibly involving them moving in on the Seljuks right alongside, or immediately after, Freddie moves through and takes Iconium. Alternatively Alexios being even more of an incompetent fool vis a vis Freddie (he attempted to renege on the military access treaty, leading to Fred planning to attack) by altering the pace of events somewhat to prevent him from fixing the mess prior to a conflict or coup.

If you want the ERE to survive, why do you want its leaders to pick a fight with Frederick?

I assume that there were very strong anti-Latin/West sentiments in the court and throughout the empire in general; is there any plausible chance of someone seeking limited backing of say Frederick against Angelos or (a decade or so later on) from, say, the Venetians or Genoese against Egypt/the Turks? Or are their relations well and truly shot to shit, all bridges burned etc? I feel like if any would-be emperor got too cozy with westerners he'd have an angry mob catapulting a new emperor to power within the week.

Not all bridges burned, but certainly anyone who would look to the backing of Frederick would probably not be someone with anyone else's support if they're that desperate.
 
Really a bad idea. Far better that the Byzantines get their act together to take advantage of the Sultanate of Rum's defeat at Iconium.
That was my initial thought. Wiki says the Germans "briefly" occupied Iconium, how brief is brief? Although the Sultanate recovered remarkably quickly.... then again the Ottomans managed to outlast the spanking Tamerlane gave them.:eek: Something about Anatolia must be like spinach to former horse nomads.
 
OK, so looking at the dates, I think that Richard and Philip would probably be in Messina about when Frederick was marching on Jerusalem. So all things considered, they could either turn around and go home (likely if either of them is inclined to do so) or they might go on and attack Egypt, Richard was keen on conquering the place IIRC and it might make up for being beaten to the punch.
So the Ayyubids are screwed, basically.
 
OK, so looking at the dates, I think that Richard and Philip would probably be in Messina about when Frederick was marching on Jerusalem. So all things considered, they could either turn around and go home (likely if either of them is inclined to do so) or they might go on and attack Egypt, Richard was keen on conquering the place IIRC and it might make up for being beaten to the punch.
So the Ayyubids are screwed, basically.

Do note that the sieges engaged in are going to eat up time. Acre might fall faster than OTL, but not enough to end the war before the other crusaders get there.
 
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