WI: Franco-Spanish Union

Let's say that the young King Louis XV of France dies at a young age.

First off, possible heirs are Philippe, Duc d'Orléans and Philip V of Spain. Now Philip of Spain was refused the throne of France in the treaty of Utrect, but let's say he goes for it anyway, against his cousin.

This leads most likely to a civil war in France and another European war, so soon after the War of the Quadruple Alliance.

But let's say again that Philip V of Spain wins, one way or another, and thus unifies the kingdoms of France and Spain.

What happens next? And what are the consequences of the war that brought this about? Discuss
 
1789 : made separation between more bourgeois France, and soon revolutionnary, and more absolutist Spain, more close to power.
The French Revolution, would be even more nationalist, against "foreign" king, maybe sooner republican
 
1789 : made separation between more bourgeois France, and soon revolutionnary, and more absolutist Spain, more close to power.
The French Revolution, would be even more nationalist, against "foreign" king, maybe sooner republican

Or a balkanization of France and Spain...
 
Balkanisation BEFORE rise of nationalisms in XIX?
Uh...Perhaps...But not really efficient and probably "piemontisation" of France and Spain
 
Let's say that the young King Louis XV of France dies at a young age.

First off, possible heirs are Philippe, Duc d'Orléans and Philip V of Spain. Now Philip of Spain was refused the throne of France in the treaty of Utrect, but let's say he goes for it anyway, against his cousin.

This leads most likely to a civil war in France and another European war, so soon after the War of the Quadruple Alliance.

But let's say again that Philip V of Spain wins, one way or another, and thus unifies the kingdoms of France and Spain.

What happens next? And what are the consequences of the war that brought this about? Discuss
I somehow doubt that Philip V could win such a war, because every other power in Europe, will ally to prevent this.
 
Last edited:
Balkanisation BEFORE rise of nationalisms in XIX?
Uh...Perhaps...But not really efficient and probably "piemontisation" of France and Spain

What would be the Official language of the new kingdom is it Catalan, French or Spanish

Catalan I think can get more unified and stronger as a language if France and Spain merges.
 
If France and Spain merges (in an absolute improbable and hilarious way), it would be four major languages in this state : French, Castillan, Catalan, Occitan. And maybe, Breton, Basque, but in a minor way.

Catalan isn't a step between French and Spanish, and it's only the language of Aragon crown. Furthermore, his prestige is lesser than Castillan or French, or even Occitan in the elite's mind. (I precise, Catalan have a long and deep story)

The most plausible is that every balkanised, and later merged state, own at least one of four language.
 
If France and Spain merges (in an absolute improbable and hilarious way), it would be four major languages in this state : French, Castillan, Catalan, Occitan. And maybe, Breton, Basque, but in a minor way.

Tambien ..... Andaluz :D
 
If France and Spain merges (in an absolute improbable and hilarious way), it would be four major languages in this state : French, Castillan, Catalan, Occitan. And maybe, Breton, Basque, but in a minor way.

Catalan isn't a step between French and Spanish, and it's only the language of Aragon crown. Furthermore, his prestige is lesser than Castillan or French, or even Occitan in the elite's mind. (I precise, Catalan have a long and deep story)

The most plausible is that every balkanised, and later merged state, own at least one of four language.
Actually Occitan and Catalan/BACAVA during that time are mostly known as Llemosina maybe their identity will merge..
 
I don't think it's possible for Spain and France to unit into one kingdom. If Philip becomes King of France, he would be forced by the nobility of both kingdoms and every other european power (especially England, Austria, the Netherlands and the Italian States) keep both kingdoms separate.
He would be King of France, King of Spain, King of Sardinia, etc. but not King of Franco-Spain. Similar to Charles V. he would probably not be able to leave all his titles to one heir.
 
I don't think it's possible for Spain and France to unit into one kingdom. If Philip becomes King of France, he would be forced by the nobility of both kingdoms and every other european power (especially England, Austria, the Netherlands and the Italian States) keep both kingdoms separate.
He would be King of France, King of Spain, King of Sardinia, etc. but not King of Franco-Spain. Similar to Charles V. he would probably not be able to leave all his titles to one heir.

He probably wouldn't have been allowed to unite all these titles during his lifetime. So his second son is going to be king of 'Spain', when he becomes king of France.
 
He probably wouldn't have been allowed to unite all these titles during his lifetime. So his second son is going to be king of 'Spain', when he becomes king of France.

Probably with a lot of shuffling as each of his sons succeeded each other.
If Charles Duke of Parma is King of Spain while his half brother Ferdinand is King of France (as Phillipe VIII or Fernand I?), do we get another succession war? Or does France or Spain go to Charles's younger brother Phillip? or his sister Mariana Queen Consort of Portugal?

Parma may go to the Habsburg-Lorraines as a result of their succession war.
 
Or a balkanization of France and Spain...

I like balkanisation and petty states as much as the next man, but I don't quite get why France would balkanise in this TL. I mean, AFAIK there's just no secessionist movements in this era, there's a Languedoc personality and a Breton identity etc etc but they're all happy to exist in France so long as they aren't penalised, and I dare say that the more powerful peoples of the middle class etc actually recognise that they have more to gain from a united France. Can someone please explain?
 
In fact, they exist a separatist movment in France, and it still exist


Separatists and autonomist movment still exists today, even if radical nationalism is not majoritary. But a certain federalism is present in mentalities since Gaul, and the recent tendences to recognize other languages and cultures in France is real.

In XVIII, of course, is different, but
In XVIII-XIX, in France, some deputés want to create a "South Republic", some royalist want to crown Louis XVIII as "King of Gascony" etc.

Situation of constant bi-linguism of class (administration in french, common in occitan/breton etc, cultural french and occitan).

To resume, without Corsica (where exist a fighting nationalism), they're not ready-to-made balkanization, but it exist a base for butterflies to creat it
 
In fact, they exist a separatist movment in France, and it still exist


Separatists and autonomist movment still exists today, even if radical nationalism is not majoritary. But a certain federalism is present in mentalities since Gaul, and the recent tendences to recognize other languages and cultures in France is real.

In XVIII, of course, is different, but
In XVIII-XIX, in France, some deputés want to create a "South Republic", some royalist want to crown Louis XVIII as "King of Gascony" etc.

Situation of constant bi-linguism of class (administration in french, common in occitan/breton etc, cultural french and occitan).

To resume, without Corsica (where exist a fighting nationalism), they're not ready-to-made balkanization, but it exist a base for butterflies to creat it
A free Catalonia is the best catalyst to that but at that time the Catalan identity is still tied to Languedoc and other Oc people so Catalonia might be absorbed by that republic later on...
 
I'm not sure, depsite the evident ties between occitan and catalan, it doesn't seems to me sufficient to allow to merge catalunya in France just beacause it.

Depsite this tie, Catalunya Nord e Occitania have a really determinated border. If they're a republic, it would choose the "natural borders" (haha hoho) of Pyrenees, in France, or in Spain.

Or imagine a Catalan/Occitan Republic, but with this PoD, semms, at best, very very VERY difficult
 
I'm not sure, depsite the evident ties between occitan and catalan, it doesn't seems to me sufficient to allow to merge catalunya in France just beacause it.

Depsite this tie, Catalunya Nord e Occitania have a really determinated border. If they're a republic, it would choose the "natural borders" (haha hoho) of Pyrenees, in France, or in Spain.

Or imagine a Catalan/Occitan Republic, but with this PoD, semms, at best, very very VERY difficult

the best POD for that is Aragon,Burgundy and Angevins defeating France in the hundred years war wherein majority of Southern Gaul(Provence,Limousine and Duchy of Tolouse) goes to aragon crown a part of it goes to angevin which is gascony.

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=153249

He probably wouldn't have been allowed to unite all these titles during his lifetime. So his second son is going to be king of 'Spain', when he becomes king of France.

Yep..
 
I somehow doubt that Philip V could win such a war, because every other power in Europe, will ally to prevent this.
They certainly won't like it but I'm not sure the would, or even could, all unite against Philip. Austria was busy with the Ottomans at the time. Britain was distracted with Jacobin uprisings, plus the Great Northern War that is going on at the time. The Dutch and the Duc d'Orléans supporters would definitely join, but would they be able to stand up to Spain. Savoy could go either way, along with several other Italian states. Philip might be willing to make sacrifices in Italy in exchange for France. Finally Philip had quite a bit of support in France itself as proven by the Cellamare Conspiracy and the Pontcallec Conspiracy

I don't think it's possible for Spain and France to unit into one kingdom. If Philip becomes King of France, he would be forced by the nobility of both kingdoms and every other european power (especially England, Austria, the Netherlands and the Italian States) keep both kingdoms separate.
He would be King of France, King of Spain, King of Sardinia, etc. but not King of Franco-Spain. Similar to Charles V. he would probably not be able to leave all his titles to one heir.

He probably wouldn't have been allowed to unite all these titles during his lifetime. So his second son is going to be king of 'Spain', when he becomes king of France.
Well OTL he abdicated in favour of his son Luis, leaving him the Spanish throne, so yes it is most likely that some shuffling would be done.

the best POD for that is Aragon,Burgundy and Angevins defeating France in the hundred years war wherein majority of Southern Gaul(Provence,Limousine and Duchy of Tolouse) goes to aragon crown a part of it goes to angevin which is gascony.

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=153249

Yep..
With regards to Catalonia, if any Balkanisation occured it would most likely be a restoration of the kingdom of Aragon by the nobility there. However, nationalism was born out of the French revolution, "Vive la Nation" and all that. So who knows what could happen in a much more widespread revolution. Maybe with the French excluding the Spanish, but with "Viva la nacion" being adopted.


As you can probably tell, I'm looking at maybe doing a TL based on this idea. So any ideas would be good.
 
Top