Pretty unlikely... Anne is the best compromise name as would honor both branches of the family (and I can not see Mary being happy to name her daughter Catherine)
WI: Francis II of France lives longer, has issue with Mary, Queen of Scots.
- Thread starter ordinarylittleme
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Oh OK.
A n y w a y
Since MQOS is definitely not going to return to Scotland, is she going to just...not care about it forever...? She's going to lose the throne eventually if she does that
Mary most likely pays a visit at some point, affirms whichever Guise relative takes over from Marie of Guise as Regent, and maybe even returns in full or for an extended stay once Francois dies and her son is in a Regency. While the Scots probably aren’t thrilled at an absent queen, they probably still like the freedom it likely only has a chance to go pear shaped once the new Regent is put in place.
Mary would NOT return in Scotland if Francis died and her underage son is King of France as SHE would be the Regent of France in that scenario.
She most likely would be the Regent, yes, but Mary is also a monarch in her own right and I could see a scenario where she would choose to or be forced to forfeit the Regency to stabilise Scotland if it’s getting rowdy, or is forced to stay if she visits as a widow (the visit is not impossible, and actually very likely considering IMO) and the nobility want their Queen present for a time. If nothing else, it would be interesting to have a scenario where Mary and Catherine team up against her Guise relatives if they overstep and take over her Regency if she’s forced to pull her focus to her homeland for a while.
Nobody would force her to stay in Scotland AND a Mary was not really interested to what was happening in Scotland until she had nothing to keep her tied to France. Mary teaming with her hated mother in-law AGAINST her beloved uncles is pure folly… And the idea who the Guises would made Mary their enemy is ridiculous
I mean, there definitely a few noblemen in Scotland who would love to force her to remain in Scotland, whether it be to abduct her and use her as a way of establishing themselves as King, or simply to remove whichever Guise relative she’s had there in the first place. No country was every particularly happy with a foreigner being in charge and if Mary is free from her marriage here, they may try and insist that she remain for those reasons, and in her absence the Guises would almost definitely step in and may encourage her to stay put in Scotland.
Also, the Mary/Catherine alliance in this scenario, where Mary is finally able to return and finds it’s hard or impossible to retake her role as Regent, isn’t actually insane or a folly. Her uncles were beloved because they were providing guidance that she found useful while she was a child. Here, she’s an adult woman in their way.
That being said, my assessment of Mary is that she probably enjoys the role of being a puppet Regent too much to actually fight it. But if her reign in Scotland is threatened she does probably make an appearance. MQOS wasn’t a particularly great ruler, but she did love the prestige of being Queen.
If Mary is Queen or Regent of France she would have ZERO reasons for going in Scotland. Also you are forgetting who Mary’s underage son is also the INDISPUTABLE heir to the Scottish Crown and who the Guise had NOTHING to gain from a prolonged stay of Mary in Scotland as that would deprive them of power in France and control over the young King, in favor of the First Prince of Blood old enough to take the regency (or worse in favor of Catherine) so they would NEVER encourage Mary to go in Scotland or stay there
Mary (who we should remember has terrible instincts) would most definitely have a reason to go to Scotland following her widowhood, or even before it. Scotland is her and her son’s birthright, but it’s also an incredibly turbulent kingdom that she’s leaving in the hands of a foreigner who will likely be taken as a outsider and threat by the native people. If they decide Mary has abandoned her crown (which will seem like she has if she doesn’t even come once her husband is dead) then they can and likely will do something drastic. Most likely they’ll proclaim someone else as King, but they might just murder whoever is Regent/Viceroy and elect their own leader, while demanding Mary return to them. Scotland cannot help but become a mess in this scenario. The only reason it didn’t during her time in France OTL was that Marie of Guise was an actually talented leader and once she was gone, Mary returned. And even then they ended up chasing her own. Legality means nothing if they don’t enforce it.
First Mary herself was seen by many as a foreigner, second if she is REGENT of France for HER OWN SON she would have perfectly good reasons for NOT returning in Scotland and if Scotland rebelled you CAN BE SURE who they would NOT ASK Mary’s return. Mary having a son by Francis CHANGES EVERYTHING
CONFRONTED WITH FRANCE SCOTLAND IS ONLY A LITTLE BACKWARD REBELLIOUS KINGDOM AND YOU CAN BE SURE WHO NOBODY IN HIS RIGHT MIND WOULD EVER RISK HIS/HER POSITION IN FRANCE FOR FEAR TO LOSE SOMETHING IN SCOTLAND (specially if we are talking about the Regency of France against a crown who was only a title for Mary)
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Ok so:
(1) Mary being Regent for her son does not preclude her from returning to Scotland for even a short time and then getting caught up in mess. Particularly since, before she’s his Regent, she’s a monarch in her own right. To protect her crown and her son’s inheritance she may well have to leave for what may seem like a short while.
(2) Regardless of the contents of the rebellion (anti Mary as Queen or simply against her Viceroy) there’s definitely going to be some call for Mary to return and resolve the issue in person. Whether she responds is one thing, but considering her OTL incompetence, she may well do so based off her sense of duty.
(3) Mary having a son changes a lot, but in Scotland, that kinda just means they probably start getting antsy about the future. Foreign viceroys aren’t going to be popular and it’s possible that Mary gets caught up in Scotland just trying to find a solution that settles the unrest. The other option is she sends in foreign troops, which likely winds up driving the opposing Scottish forces into an alliance with the English and could mean Elizabeth I of England is forced to support Hamilton or one of Mary’s other Protestant rivals.
TBH I cannot see France holding Scotland for long in this scenario regardless of what happens.
I'm not sure how much the Scottish nobility want Mary around, in the sense that Mary being around means less ability to reduce de facto royal power in Scotland to a shadow (without even having to openly rebel against the queen, with all that entails).
I don't know much about France as far as Mary as regent for her son there, but what do the Scots lords want from the queen, really?
I don't know much about France as far as Mary as regent for her son there, but what do the Scots lords want from the queen, really?
While they might not want Mary around, she can technically return and have them all beheaded for "messing up her country" (look I know they weren't really, but she could think that) if she pleased. The people on the other hand....
If she does not return to Scotland she's going to lose that crown which she does NOT want. She will also NOT be sole regent of France as you can bet her mother-in-law, Caterina de Medici, will do her best to claw her way into power...
Francis II lives longer meaning she will not be a widow...she will return to Scotland with him in tow, which will NOT be popular with the Scottish people...but...
Except Scotland was also rapidly becoming uncontrollably "heretic" in Mary's eyes and also began to rule in a way that would NOT fit Mary's interests (pro-France, Roman Catholic)...
I mean, if they actually expect that Mary is going to arbitrarily behead them, that's more likely to cause a revolt than a request for her to return to Scotland, IMO.
And "the people" below the nobility - is Mary's grasp on what the Scottish people think (in OTL or this one) or how much it may matter after so many years away all that good? I'm inclined to doubt it.
I wouldn't say there's no circumstances she'd return, but I think "regent for her son in France" is a lot more pressing in regards to what I imagine her priorities are.
And while Francis is still alive - being queen of France sure sounds like it meant more her than Queen of Scotland OTL. I don't think she's going to lose her status as queen by staying away - there's no reason for the nobles to try to remove that, as opposed to just entrenching their position at the expense of the monarchy's ability to check them, which is not quite the same thing as far as being busy being queen in France.
True, Mary's going to be fairly out of touch in Scotland, but uh...her son is also going to be king of Scotland, not just France, I would think she'd have the sense to take her son to Scotland so he will at least know the land he rules...if she never abdicates ITTL, do we think she'll just be an absentee queen?
Mary has spent (as of the birth of her eldest son TTL ) fourteen of of her nineteen years outside Scotland, and gotten by just fine. If we're talking about her making sure her son knows the land he rules, Scotland is a peripheral and minor part of it at best for the King of France.
"So why not continue to be an absentee queen, at least while her son is growing up?" is how it looks to me. A different Mary might care a lot about Scotland, but even OTL when she did return she spent a fair amount of time with the whole "I should be Elizabeth's heir." thing rather than focusing on the kingdom she was in, so I think it's going to be even less important if anything here.
Oh OK. While Scotland is a peripheral part at best you would think it would be best for the king to get it under control...and the personal union won't last longer than their dynasty...as an absentee queen she could perhaps be better off though