WI: France's Greatest Admiral de Suffren Lives Longer?

WI: France's Greatest Admiral de Suffren Lives Longer?

Pierre de Suffren was in my opinion the greatest admiral in French history. His sudden death in 1788 at the age of 59 cut short any involvement he might have had in the French Revolution. What if de Suffren instead had of lived?

What role could he have play in the Revolutionary War and beyond? If he ever came face to face with Lord Nelson who would have won? Could he have been an asset to Emperor Napoleon?

Also on a slightly ASB note what would Emperor de Suffren be like?
 
The man either gets executed or is forced to flee France due to the revolution--gets forced at one point to serve in royalist armies against the Republicans.
 
Nelson, for all that he was a raving egomaniac and a fully paid up member of the Awkward Squad, did at least have considerable gifts of leadership; the band of brothers he spoke of was not merely propaganda, he did have the genuine affection of a large majority of the middle and lower ranks of the Navy.

Suffren, although skilled, determined and persistent (and in all probability a better sailor in the purely technical sense), led by the shouting and bullying school- he had no charm worth speaking of, his command style was brutally abrasive, and he seems to be much more popular now than he was when he was alive.

He would likely be utterly out of temper with the revolutionaries, a son of the ancien regime at an age where most people's attitudes and sensibilities have congealed; even if he was willing to serve France regardless of who ran it, they would have looked on him with suspicion.

Fifty- nine is not an unnaturally early death, either- Cuthbert Collingwood died at 61, for instance. The most probable fates for him are, I reckon, in descending order,
arrest and execution as an aristo;
service with the Revolutionary French navy until he annoys someone important enough to successfully denounce him for incivisme, at which point, off to sneeze in the basket;
fleeing into exile personally, probably not to Britain- perhaps Malta where he would be welcome, at least until 1798;
somehow surviving in Revolutionary service long enough to take part in the early campaigns of the war;
escaping and being offered command of French Royalist forces.

I don't think forced is the right term; considering his initiative and reputation, the poor sods under his command may have to be forced to accept him.

He was good, no question, but he was also severely grumpy, and in the unlikely event of his putting up with the revolutionaries and their putting up with him, I'm not convinced he or anyone could overcome the largely self inflicted logistic and personnel issues of the French fleet of the time.

He would be making do with standards of provisions, powder, sails and rigging, dockyard support and above all crew discipline and training that the French Navy had left behind in the days of Louis XIV; standards that only started to pick up again after several defeats had hammered the message home.

Problem is that it's precisely those early defeats, nigh on inevitable with the Navy in upheaval, turmoil and shambles, he'd be being asked to preside over. Would the Expedition of Ireland, for instance, have been a success with him in Villaret de Joyeuse' shoes?

He would probably have been more use in naval administration than at sea. Again, if the Paris politicians could tolerate him, and he them.
 
Nelson, for all that he was a raving egomaniac and a fully paid up member of the Awkward Squad, did at least have considerable gifts of leadership; the band of brothers he spoke of was not merely propaganda, he did have the genuine affection of a large majority of the middle and lower ranks of the Navy.

Suffren, although skilled, determined and persistent (and in all probability a better sailor in the purely technical sense), led by the shouting and bullying school- he had no charm worth speaking of, his command style was brutally abrasive, and he seems to be much more popular now than he was when he was alive.

He would likely be utterly out of temper with the revolutionaries, a son of the ancien regime at an age where most people's attitudes and sensibilities have congealed; even if he was willing to serve France regardless of who ran it, they would have looked on him with suspicion.

Fifty- nine is not an unnaturally early death, either- Cuthbert Collingwood died at 61, for instance. The most probable fates for him are, I reckon, in descending order,
arrest and execution as an aristo;
service with the Revolutionary French navy until he annoys someone important enough to successfully denounce him for incivisme, at which point, off to sneeze in the basket;
fleeing into exile personally, probably not to Britain- perhaps Malta where he would be welcome, at least until 1798;
somehow surviving in Revolutionary service long enough to take part in the early campaigns of the war;
escaping and being offered command of French Royalist forces.

I don't think forced is the right term; considering his initiative and reputation, the poor sods under his command may have to be forced to accept him.

He was good, no question, but he was also severely grumpy, and in the unlikely event of his putting up with the revolutionaries and their putting up with him, I'm not convinced he or anyone could overcome the largely self inflicted logistic and personnel issues of the French fleet of the time.

He would be making do with standards of provisions, powder, sails and rigging, dockyard support and above all crew discipline and training that the French Navy had left behind in the days of Louis XIV; standards that only started to pick up again after several defeats had hammered the message home.

Problem is that it's precisely those early defeats, nigh on inevitable with the Navy in upheaval, turmoil and shambles, he'd be being asked to preside over. Would the Expedition of Ireland, for instance, have been a success with him in Villaret de Joyeuse' shoes?

He would probably have been more use in naval administration than at sea. Again, if the Paris politicians could tolerate him, and he them.

Much thanks for the analysis.:)
 
Suffren was abrasive against cowards who were looking for any excuse not to fight against the RN. I never read he had any problem with fighting captains.
 
Neither did John Benbow; but look what happened to him...he's probably the closest equivalent in British service, actually, and both their captains let them down, fighting shy or declining to engage; in both cases the reasons were internal navy politics exacerbated by command style.

N A M Rodger, using Taillemite, Cavaliero, Masson, Caron and the French official history as sources, has this to say about Suffren;

He was a very different character from his predecessor, and indeed all French admirals of the day. A Provencal who never learned to speak proper French, slovenly and foul- mouthed, trained as a corsair in the Navy of the Knights of Malta, Suffren was a bold and aggressive fighter but scarcely a team player. Always popular on the lower deck (at least of Toulon- manned ships), he was hated by many of his captains, whom he humiliated with his violent and sarcastic temper, telling them nothing before action and blaming them for everything afterwards.

Reading between the lines, the primary source for this is likely to have been his captains and their reports to the ministry of marine, attempting to deflect blame from themselves back to him. Which even before going into detail, is still a pretty good indication that command relationships have broken down.

On the other hand, he did fight. On the same page Rodger admits of Suffren's "meteoric brilliance." Actually he may have a much higher revolutionary viability than I had been thinking; he may have been asking more from captains trained in the old French school, which did have a certain logic to it, than they understood how to give; which would not be a problem once they have all been guillotined. Popularity with the lower deck may give him a real edge in the days of revolution, and he may well be, for instance, in charge at Toulon when the town attempts to rise in Royalist counter- revolution.

Toulon was Bonaparte's hinge of fate. Hmmm....
 
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