WI: France Successfully Receives Charles the Bold's Burgundy With At Most Minimal Bloodshed

[TickTock The Witch's Dead]

Instead of constantly alienating Charles the Bold of Burgundy whose daughter eventually married Maximillian Habsburg, what if Louis XI of France pursues a better approach that gets Charles to marry off his daughter to Louis's son? Assuming France manages to receive Burgundy that way, how is the history of France changed? Without the Burgundian inheritance what happens to the Habsburgs and the Holy Roman Empire in general?

With the Burgundian inheritance how more successful will French expansion be? The French will have more money thanks to Burgundy and with more territory there isn't much stopping them from taking more of the Holy Roman Empire. Does France do better in Italy because of this? Does France also do better against the Iberian state in the south? Does France even take back Calais and the Channel Islands with ease?

And when the Reformation comes does this cause France to be more Protestant since much of Burgundy was Protestant? Does it make France predominately Protestant? Will the Wars of French Religion even be a thing?

Here is Charles the Bold's Burgundy just to put things in perspective:

 

[Viking25]

Instead of constantly alienating Charles the Bold of Burgundy whose daughter eventually married Maximillian Habsburg, what if Louis XI of France pursues a better approach that gets Charles to marry off his daughter to Louis's son? Assuming France manages to receive Burgundy that way, how is the history of France changed? Without the Burgundian inheritance what happens to the Habsburgs and the Holy Roman Empire in general?

With the Burgundian inheritance how more successful will French expansion be? The French will have more money thanks to Burgundy and with more territory there isn't much stopping them from taking more of the Holy Roman Empire. Does France do better in Italy because of this? Does France also do better against the Iberian state in the south? Does France even take back Calais and the Channel Islands with ease?

And when the Reformation comes does this cause France to be more Protestant since much of Burgundy was Protestant? Does it make France predominately Protestant? Will the Wars of French Religion even be a thing?

Here is Charles the Bold's Burgundy just to put things in perspective:

I mean I doubt the reformation would occur in such a timeline as Martin Luther may not even be born or If it then it is in a way different form who knows maybe they don't even stop respecting the pope. As for how this would affect French expansion I would say very well and this may result in a more German centered France though they probably still launch forays into Italy.

 

[Yuhaoyang]

Annexing most of Burgundy would give France even more reasons than otl to stay Catholic（and I always doubt the “surviving independent Burgundian state would go Protestant" cliche）：enforcing a Francophone "national church" on the the Dutch-speaking population would be a worse idea than trying to keep all ethnic groups using Latin as liturgical language.
Just like otl Habsburg monarchy，Austria，Bohemia and Hungary all have experienced very powerful Reformation movement，but in the end it was universalist Catholicism that kept a multi - ethnic empire aloft.
Besides，a France that annexed most of Burgundy would have become a literally unstoppable Juggernaut on the continent so the Papacy would not dare to make trouble for Paris.

 

[kasumigenx]

Another way to do that is for Charles the Bold have a son and Have both the direct valois and valois-orleans die off or have Mary of Burgundy marry Orleans and Charles VIII dies as OTL.

 

[TickTock The Witch's Dead]

Another way to do that is for Charles the Bold have a son and Have both the direct valois and valois-orleans die off or have Mary of Burgundy marry Orleans and Charles VIII dies as OTL.

The latter is far more likely for sure.

 

[isabella]

A French wedding for Mary is possible only if Louis become widowed again at a good date for marrying her or one of his older sons lived (also him dying sonless would work). Else if Mary of Burgundy married Nicholas of Anjou and had a son is pretty likely who their male line would inherit France

 

[AltoRegnant]

I did a thread on this sorta thing as well, but between Marie and Charles VIII. Regardless, main thing is: England and Austria are scared out of their minds and the dutch nobility of burgundy are questionably loyal

 

[raharris1973]

Vive le Francewank!

History converges towards "the mean" of timelines that start after 650 AD or so: centuries of French hegemony in Europe.

Our TL, with the Habsburgs and then the English and Prussians (briefly) rolling all sixes, was an outlier from the typical post-Clovis timeline. In more TLs, Middle and South and Far Easterners habit of calling all West Europeans Franks, Firanji, Ferengi, Firangi is a bit more justified.

 

[TickTock The Witch's Dead]

I did a thread on this sorta thing as well, but between Marie and Charles VIII. Regardless, main thing is: England and Austria are scared out of their minds and the dutch nobility of burgundy are questionably loyal

Yeah I commented there once.

Overall French expansion in Europe will be much more difficult to contain and that not even the OTL network of alliances between the Habsburgs, Spain, England, and various Italian states can stop them.

 

[Kurd Gossemer]

Well, in that case, France suddenly becomes most op bastards around, not Frankish Empire under Charlemagne levels, but with the immense wealth, prestige, population and resources from the Low Countries and exercising influence over the states left of the Rhine, combined that with further centralization to further strengthen the state, and we could see a legitimate golden age for France in Europe.

Of course, this also scares everyone shitless, Spain, Italian states, England and parts of the HRE all have reasons to fear and distrust France, but now that they're in control of the most rich area in Europe, I could definitely see a anti french block much like OTL with royal marriages to further solidify it, although even this wouldn't probably be enough to contain French expansion (which would be limited to Savoy and Milan, along with slowly absorbing the states left of the Rhine through economic and political dominance).

 

[TickTock The Witch's Dead]

Well, in that case, France suddenly becomes most op bastards around, not Frankish Empire under Charlemagne levels, but with the immense wealth, prestige, population and resources from the Low Countries and exercising influence over the states left of the Rhine, combined that with further centralization to further strengthen the state, and we could see a legitimate golden age for France in Europe.

Of course, this also scares everyone shitless, Spain, Italian states, England and parts of the HRE all have reasons to fear and distrust France, but now that they're in control of the most rich area in Europe, I could definitely see a anti french block much like OTL with royal marriages to further solidify it, although even this wouldn't probably be enough to contain French expansion (which would be limited to Savoy and Milan, along with slowly absorbing the states left of the Rhine through economic and political dominance).

How well would France expand to southern Italy and the rest of Germany? I have the impression that nothing will stop the inevitable expansion but I also believe that the French will have serious trouble even with their newly gained territories in Burgundy.

 

[Kurd Gossemer]

How well would France expand to southern Italy and the rest of Germany? I have the impression that nothing will stop the inevitable expansion but I also believe that the French will have serious trouble even with their newly gained territories in Burgundy.

They wouldn't, even then they wouldn't want to alienate the rest of Europe and make themselves seem scarier, so only places they have claims (like Milan) or are related by direct blood (like Savoy who's very close).
There's also places they would de facto control, like the bishoprics of Utrecht and Liege who wouldn't be able to resist the juggernaut living close to them. Finally, the German cities and states on the left of the Rhine would be further integrated into them through economic and political influence, something that would only increase if France threw itself on colonial adventures (something they would totally do) and could directly trade with them products they can't get anywhere else, further making them dependent on trade with them.

 

[TheSwedishHistorian]

How much of Burgundy would they keep? Would they get most of it or only the parts outside the HRE?

 

[Kurd Gossemer]

How much of Burgundy would they keep? Would they get most of it or only the parts outside the HRE?

I would say all of it, because only the English could form a threat alongside some rebels there, all the other powers are busy/uninterested/can't reach there in time. Especially if the French are doing in a legitimate way(like marrying their heir to their heiress) and thus have legal backing for them grabbing everything and a shield in case anyone tries to intervene.

 

[DracoLazarus]

How much of Burgundy would they keep? Would they get most of it or only the parts outside the HRE?

I would say all of it, because only the English could form a threat alongside some rebels there, all the other powers are busy/uninterested/can't reach there in time. Especially if the French are doing in a legitimate way(like marrying their heir to their heiress) and thus have legal backing for them grabbing everything and a shield in case anyone tries to intervene.

The parts "inside the HRE" would fall outside of it precisely due to the inheritance.
France didn't pay allegiance to the HRE for any land they got inside it by either infeoffment, conquest or inheritance. They considered their sovereignty replaced that of the Emperor.

 

[Kurd Gossemer]

The parts "inside the HRE" would fall outside of it precisely due to the inheritance.
France didn't pay allegiance to the HRE for any land they got inside it by either infeoffment, conquest or inheritance. They considered their sovereignty replaced that of the Emperor.

A good example is Italy, they were nominally part of the original empire but ended up drifting so much they were in only in paper, since France wouldn't want to be in the HRE and HRE wouldn't France inside them, they would probably find a ancient law that mentions territories leaving the empire or just make a new precedent there.

 

[DracoLazarus]

A good example is Italy, they were nominally part of the original empire but ended up drifting so much they were in only in paper, since France wouldn't want to be in the HRE and HRE wouldn't France inside them, they would probably find a ancient law that mentions territories leaving the empire or just make a new precedent there.

There's the precedent of Dauphiné already.
In addition, I feel that France could easily claim Arelat once it has inherited Burgundy and effectively completely vassalised Savoy

 

[Kurd Gossemer]

There's the precedent of Dauphiné already.
In addition, I feel that France could easily claim Arelat once it has inherited Burgundy and effectively completely vassalised Savoy

Indeed, there's little to stop them expanding into the surrounding areas, although they wouldn't try to overextended themselves (Naples while conquerable, would be difficult to manage due to land distance).

 

[TickTock The Witch's Dead]

How much of Burgundy would they keep? Would they get most of it or only the parts outside the HRE?

All of it. So long as France gets the land through a marriage pact then there's nothing stopping France from owning all of Burgundy.

 

[DracoLazarus]

Indeed, there's little to stop them expanding into the surrounding areas, although they wouldn't try to overextended themselves (Naples while conquerable, would be difficult to manage due to land distance).

Well, I think with Aachen right outside their door, there is little stopping an ambitious French King who were to control it and Pavia to proclaim himself the real heir of Charlemagne.