Wi France merged with Spain

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Colonel flagg, Sep 13, 2019 at 4:25 PM.

  1. Colonel flagg Well-Known Member

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    What if France and Spain merged after the war of Spanish succession ?
     
  2. Vinization Unwavering Optimist

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    I'm not well versed in 18th century Europe, but I believe it's safe to say that every other state in Europe would be scared shitless. French armies funded with New World silver? Yikes.
     
  3. Nephi Well-Known Member

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    I think would form a state that may well see it as it's place to unify the entirety of Europe.
     
  4. Arcvalons L'Internationale sera le genre humain.

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    Britain would not rest until the balance of power has been restored. Might see Germany formed earlier.
     
  5. John7755 يوحنا Historical Inquiries

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    Why would this state be that powerful? It may have constant internal divisions and decentralizing tendencies that would make it powerful economically and so forth but not able to wage offensive wars.

    Further, the Pyrenees mountains would create two distinct economic zones without likewise control over the Mediterranean. Making the country more divided into partisanship and factionalism, that would make much types of reform impossible and large standing armies less plausible, at least when attempting to integrate both regions into a single army.
     
  6. Vinization Unwavering Optimist

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    Furthermore, this superstate would be so scary that it would certainly unify the rest of Europe against it. Austria, Britain, the Dutch, maybe even far off Russia. And they wouldn't stop until it was broken apart.
     
  7. KingOnTheEdge Vive La Revolucion

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    It did. That was OTLS war of Spanish succession. And that state still almost won
     
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  8. Confederate Liberal Well-Known Member

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    Most plausible would be a dual monarchy like Austria Hungary and would work about as well as AH did army whose. Interestingly both have strong naval traditions so you might see Franco Spain have a fairly large Navy/Armada
     
  9. King_Arthur The Once and Present King

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    Don't forget various Italies, D-N, Sweden, the PLC depending on the King and GNW, probably the Ottomans and North African states too
     
  10. Pelranius Well-Known Member

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    Depending on how the Franco-Spanish superstate throws its weight around in Asia, it could even make enemies out of the Qing and various Indian powers.
     
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  11. Soup Well-Known Member

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    I think you could definitely put your thumb on the scales in the leadup to OTL 1700 to where no other European Great Powers are able to contest a Franco-Spanish union, but it'd definitely be more of a defensive juggernaut. Plus, the second the powers pull themselves together, basically all of European diplomacy becomes "what's the Bourbon union after? let's do the opposite of that". Repeat ad infinitum until either the Holy Roman Emperor is now French or the whole enterprise is brought down by force of arms.
     
  12. Pelranius Well-Known Member

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    The HRE gets eaten by Franco-Spain?

    The Ottomans. PLC and Romanovs just became best friends.
     
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  13. JDF_01 Perra condescendiente

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    Hmm, I don’t know but such a monstruosity strike my mind dominating all of Europe’s romance nations at least...
     
  14. Jackson Lennock Well-Known Member

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    What would such a thing be called? The Bourbon Empire? Hispanogallia? Maybe the Latin Empire...

    Where is the capital? Paris or Madrid? I personally like the idea of it being in Barcelona or Pamplona since both of these cities are in Iberia but have some historically French connections (Barcelona having been a part of France at one point, and Bourbon Kings of France pretty much always proclaiming themselves King of Navarre).

    Does this superstate control Milan, Naples, Sicily, Sardinia, Presidi, and the Netherlands? That's a combined population of around 38 million in 1700 in Europe alone.
    Going beyond Europe, that's 48 million total.


    To compare...

    Ottomans: 24.77
    Holy Roman Empire: 20
    Russia: 14
    Austria: 9.99
    Poland: 9 Poland and Saxony being in personal union, that's 11 under the Wettins.
    Britain: 8.77 9.133 including British America
    Sweden: 2.5
    Portugal: 2.3
    Venice: 2
    Saxony: 2
    Netherlands: 1.8
    Prussia: 1.5
    Denmark-Norway: 1.3
    Bavaria: 1

    If a Bourbon mega empire formed and got its act together, that's a behemoth.



    I'm not exactly sure why all of Europe would oppose this empire constantly. OTL Bavaria sided with France, for example. So did the Savoys for a time. Russia, Poland, Sweden, Saxony, Denmark, and Ottomans were content to kill each other in the east.

    I think there will be a very very consistent alliance against France on the part of Britain, Netherlands, Austria, and Portugal. Prussia OTL sided with the anti-french forces opportunistically (forcing Austria to recognize the Prussian King as, well, a King). I'm not really sure how Denmark, Sweden, Poland, Saxony, or Russia come into play because in the East and North the pressure from the Bourbon Realm isn't going to be as harsh or immediate. Maybe there'd be tensions with the Ottomans over the Mediterranean.



    There may be something of a diplomatic/cultural revolution in the west. I can't see effective Bourbon containment without engaging muslim nations (Morocco and the Ottomans).
     
  15. KingOnTheEdge Vive La Revolucion

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    The western roman empire
     
  16. Monter Well-Known Member

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    This, on threads like this people often understate the mechanics of actual unions and assume that having the same monarch means the total union of both state apparatus into a mega unified and absolutist state, which won't happen, you're combining the ever growing issues on the French monarchy with the mess of 17-18th century Spain on a single hand and expecting it to go full steamrolling everyone, real life isn't EU4.
    It didn't almost win, it won, the correct term would be "it almost lost" since Louis XIV was ready to bail out on the final phase of the war until the Alliance heavy-handed demands that forced him to keep going.
     
  17. KingOnTheEdge Vive La Revolucion

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    On the first part, the image, especially about the war of spanish succession tends to come from the then recent unification of England and Scotland
    on the second part, the king of spain had to give up the position as heir of france to become king, hence a full victory wasn't achieved
     
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  18. Monter Well-Known Member

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    It was never on the table, Louis XIV had already forfeit the Grand Dauphin and his descendants from their (superior) claim for Philip to take the Spanish throne without risking union with France, the formal renunciation was just because by the end of the war Philip was actually the second in line, so the risk of union was actually a thing, and not even Louis XIV wanted that.
     
  19. isabella Well-Known Member

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    Totally ASB.

    In OTL Bavaria side with France because the war was about what second son putting on the Spanish throne...
    If Louis XIV had insisted for his son (and not second grandson) on the Spanish throne everyone would have supported Archduke Karl (or maybe the Duke of Savoy) as next King of Spain
     
  20. isabella Well-Known Member

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    True. And if you think who Spain at this time had still separate councils for Castile and Aragon in no way they would accept a full union with France...

    And is not only a question of almost win, almost lost as the only reason for which Anjou/Felipe V in the end was allowed to keep the Spanish crown was the death without sons of Emperor Joseph I because his rival for the Spanish Crown Archduke Karl has become Holy Roman Emperor Karl VI making the permanence of Felipe V of Bourbon on the Spanish throne, under condition of a full renounce to his rights on France and the acknowledgment who the crowns of France and Spain would be never held by the same person the lesser evil
     
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