WI France invades Germany during the invasion of Poland?

[ryackov]

Would French tank forces be destroyed by the elaborate anti-tank mines emplaced by the Germans?

 

[Historyman 14]

It might cause a repeat of 1914. No one whats that.

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

It would make more sense to prepare a air offensive. While no one had a air force capable of a true stratigic blow in 1939 a power moralel blow could be made. A series of attacks on the railroad bridges in the Rhine river basin, on the river barges, airfields, and rail roads. would make the German more than nervous. Losing 300 - 400 aircrew in a week is a lot different than losing 50,000 infantry.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

It would make more sense to prepare a air offensive. While no one had a air force capable of a true stratigic blow in 1939 a power moralel blow could be made. A series of attacks on the railroad bridges in the Rhine river basin, on the river barges, airfields, and rail roads. would make the German more than nervous. Losing 300 - 400 aircrew in a week is a lot different than losing 50,000 infantry.

Germany was well prepared for this. AdA did a thread on this a while back in fact. France didn't want to start reprisal raids from the Germans, especially when they did not have a radar early warning network, which the Germans did (though not as good as the British Chain Home in terms of coverage it was more than enough to slaughter the British when the tried to bomb Germany in 1939).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Heligoland_Bight_(1939)

They also had a sizable modern fighter force ready for exactly this; the French had nothing in service that could match the Me109 in 1939, so it would have been a slaughter and made the German's job easier in 1940.

https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Странная_война#.D0.90.D0.B2.D0.B8.D0.B0.D1.86.D0.B8.D1.8F

Edit:
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=248396

 

[Max Sinister]

If the WAllies had attacked the Ruhr area, they could have wrecked Hitler's arsenal.

Sure, many thousand, maybe hundreds of thousands people still would have died - but compare this to OTL.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

If the WAllies had attacked the Ruhr area, they could have wrecked Hitler's arsenal.

Sure, many thousand, maybe hundreds of thousands people still would have died - but compare this to OTL.

Yeah, they just had to load up all their thousands of nuclear bombs in their thousands of four engine strategic bombers and just carpet bomb the hell out of the Ruhr! Oh wait, they didn't have any of that, the RAF would take months to mobilize and shift to bases in France and the French air force was a joke, with less than 1/3rd of it being modern and overall being much smaller than the LW. The French didn't even have a modern fighter that could take the Me109 on in equal terms and these less than capable 'modern' fighters were less than 30% of the 700 fighters the French had stationed all over the country in 1939. The LW had over 500 Me109s on the Franco-German border in 1939 and that number only went up dramatically by October when the Poles surrendered. The French couldn't even mobilize enough aircraft to dent the Ruhr by the time the LW started shifting its much larger numbers West again, which then gave them the capability to wreck the French economy far more than the French had of wrecking the Ruhr in 1939-40. Not to mention also that the Germans had the best air defense network in the world in 1939 in terms of FLAK defenses, which when coupled with their Freya radar and much more capable fighters would have shredded the French bomber force to uselessness in a matter of days. There is a reason the RAF decided to abandon daylight bombing in 1939: they were slaughtered over Germany when they tried it. The French ALA was even less prepared than the RAF for a bombing campaign, let alone a defensive air war.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Armée_de_l'Air_(1909–1942)

The urge to construct more than 2,500 modern machines, among them the Bloch MB.170 bomber and the Dewoitine D.520 fighter plane, had been a response to circumstances by the French government, which itself had been prompted by an alleged remark by the then-commander-in-chief of the air force, who claimed that less than half the approximately 1,400 front-line aircraft would be ready to go to war at a moment’s notice; and most of those were obsolescent, anyway. Perhaps this politicking was not surprising, given that the air force generals had to fight their corner against the army and navy chiefs for their piece of the military budget pie every year, since there was intense inter-service rivalry. Nor was there even any clear idea about how the air force should be used, and conflicting ideas led to bickering and delays while a certain neighbor to the east of the Rhine was preparing its armed forces. The inadequacy of the French aeronautical programs, as well as the indecision of the high command, resulted in the French Air Force being placed in a position of weakness, confronting a modern and well organized Luftwaffe, whose first teeth had been proverbially cut in Spain (Most prominently with the bombing of Gernika-Lumo), where the civil war had ended in March 1939 with victory for the Fascist dictator Francisco Franco.

The French didn't have the means to bomb Germany and were far too intimidated to even attempt it, for good reason. Also they needed to keep forces in reserve in case Italy or Spain tried to join in, so they were pulled in multiple directions and couldn't even commit their full strength to the effort, even if they tried. War came way too early for the French, who were not ready in any way for it. The RAF wasn't ready to try until late in 1939 and was slaughtered when they tried; they then tried by night and couldn't hit anything until 1942. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butt_Report

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/2WWfrenchair.htm

When the Second World War broke out in 1939 the French Air Force had only 826 fighter planes. This included the Morane-Saulnier 406, the Bloch 152, the Breguet 691, Dewoitine D502, Aresnal VG-33, and the Caudron C714. The French only had 250 bombers including Farman F222 and the Bloch 131.

By the spring of 1940 the French Air Force had 740 modern fighters and 140 effective bombers. The Royal Air Force reluctantly supplied 350 aircraft but these were nearly all fairly old as the latest Hawker Hurricane and the Supermarine Spitfire were needed to defend Britain. It is estimated that the French lost 757 aircraft during the Western Offensive.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Armée_de_l'Air_(1909–1942)

When war inevitably did break out, the Armée de l'Air would suffer greatly as a result of the total chaos that was reigning within government, armed forces and industry that allowed only 826 fighter planes and 250 bombers to be anything like combat-ready. Indeed, many more airplanes were not ready when they ought to have been, and it was not just a question of the airframes but also the defensive armament they were carrying, with a lot of machine-guns not even calibrated properly, and some bombers allegedly had not even a bomb-sight fitted when they were finally delivered to the squadrons. This would only make the Germans’ victory over France that much quicker. Furthermore, unlike in the UK, which benefited from the services of the (non-combat) pilots of the Air Transport Auxiliary (ATA) (of which famed aviatrix Amy Johnson was one until her death on 5 January 1941), front-line pilots in France became responsible for ferrying "combat-ready" aircraft from the factories to the squadrons, thus temporarily depleting the front-line strength at any one time even if invasion was hanging over France’s head.

When the invasion did come on 10 May 1940, the Germans were not only in possession of more aircraft and weapons than the western Allies (among them were approximately 400 aircraft from the RAF, including Hawker Hurricane fighters and outclassed Fairey Battle bombers), but many of them were veterans of the war in Spain and so had brought their comrades up to speed as to how to conduct the air element of the war by "preparing the ground" for the Panzer divisions of the German Army.

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

If the WAllies had attacked the Ruhr area, they could have wrecked Hitler's arsenal.

I cant find the number of bombers necessary to do this. The attacks would need to attack morale of the German leaders. Targets that produce some fast visible results would need to be chosen. The bridges & railyards are some of the possiblities.

Germany was well prepared for this. AdA did a thread on this a while back in fact.
.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Heligoland_Bight_(1939)

There are some valid points in that thread, some errors, and a lot of territory not covered. The fundamental problem was the senior French air force leaders. Changing this requires a PoD reaching back to 1938 or beyond. It also allows the French AF to take several effective actions without the need for massive changes in hardware. The German leaders also had some fundamental problems, which in OTL caused problems, but not severe enough to lose the campaign. Provide a greater challenge from the Allies and the German leaders fall apart at a faster rate. We have to remember none of them thought it would be remotely as easy as it was, all thought defeat was a possiblity, and more than a few thought German defeat in 1939-40 was a certainity. If a few Allied tactical or operational sucesses very early confirm the worse fears Hitler, Goering & several others will react as badly as in other extreme stress situations a bit later.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

There are some valid points in that thread, some errors, and a lot of territory not covered. The fundamental problem was the senior French air force leaders. Changing this requires a PoD reaching back to 1938 or beyond. It also allows the French AF to take several effective actions without the need for massive changes in hardware. The German leaders also had some fundamental problems, which in OTL caused problems, but not severe enough to lose the campaign. Provide a greater challenge from the Allies and the German leaders fall apart at a faster rate. We have to remember none of them thought it would be remotely as easy as it was, all thought defeat was a possiblity, and more than a few thought German defeat in 1939-40 was a certainity. If a few Allied tactical or operational sucesses very early confirm the worse fears Hitler, Goering & several others will react as badly as in other extreme stress situations a bit later.

The problem is that the French had at best 250 working bombers in 1939, with some not even having their bombsights or machine guns. You would need a different France in the 1930s, one that was actually solvent and could afford to spend money on their air force, which was the least favored of all, considering that France had legitimate need to focus spending on her army and navy first. France was insolvent by 1936, which was a major reason she couldn't afford to mobilize to oppose the German remilitarization of the Rhineland. After this she started working on new designs to replace her outdated equipment, but by 1938 the money was not there either to start a massive building program and of course there wasn't enough time or trained pilots to take advantage of new planes by the time war started. France was in no position to fight in 1939-40 and shouldn't have declared war; it thought it could get away with hiding behind its forts and blockade Germany into submission, but clearly it was not ready for offensive action prior to the fall of Poland or really even by May 1940.

By the time French bombers and fighters could be readied for air operations against Germany, Poland would have fallen and left the LW free to operate against France; as it was the German fighter strength outnumbered France by over 2:1 and virtually all of the German fighters were modern, while the French had about 30% of its few hundred fighters modernized. Then there is the bombing issue; France had 250 bombers ready in 1939, Germany had over 1000 not including Stukas. Any bombing exchange would have gone badly against the French, which is why they didn't instigate any such exchange and forbid the British from bombing Germany from France. Also the RAF wasn't ready to displace to France and undertake offensive action prior to 1940; as it was their 1939 attacks came from Britain and did not end well.

 

[PMN1]

If the WAllies had attacked the Ruhr area, they could have wrecked Hitler's arsenal.

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With what was available at the time and the navigation skills, that is pure fantasy.