WI : France had North American and Indian Colonies during the Revolution

Consider French won the 7 years war (likely shorter war) and still got colonies in North America (even grabbing the lands it lost in the treaty of Utrecht) and India, due to war being shorter and Britain pulling out of war and giving up land to save Hanover. Consider the thirteen colonies still rebel and got their independance (with help from france and spain). Consider that more French colonist are sent to North America (eating all the money from the victory in the 7 years war). What happens to these colonies during the French Revolution ? Consider this under several types of govenment in Metropolitan France, like a Constitutional Monarchy, a Jacobin-style Republic, a Thermidorian-style Republic and a Napoleonic-style Empire. Do they influence what happen in France ?

Same question for the Indian Colonies.
 
Well...its a bit of a hard one since one of the major reasons, if not the main reason, for the American revolution was that they no longer needed the UK to defend them. They felt pretty safe without the French on their doorstep. So...a lot of questions before we can come up with the answers.

And anyone who makes a wannabe-clever comment about those French islands near Canada and of course the Carribean gets slapped with a fish. :p
 
If the USA is still formed in this TL, it is likely the Quasi-War becomes a Normal War. Chances are it will just be the equivalent of the war of 1812, but against the French. During the Revolution, especially if Napoleon still comes to power and has the same ideas of a French Empire, the colonies might be occupied by either the USA or UK.
 
If the USA is still formed in this TL, it is likely the Quasi-War becomes a Normal War. Chances are it will just be the equivalent of the war of 1812, but against the French. During the Revolution, especially if Napoleon still comes to power and has the same ideas of a French Empire, the colonies might be occupied by either the USA or UK.
An bigger USA with Francophone states? Sounds interesting....
 
An bigger USA with Francophone states? Sounds interesting....

The Quasi War is a specific result from events in OTL, which might not occur or not even lead to said result TTL. Should we accept such parallelism, then French America would also be largely conservative, dominated by the Church and Land owning Siegneurs with a small class of French merchants and Royalist dependent bureaucrats. It will be a Royalist stronghold and opponent to any revolutionary regime. Thus an ally of Britain and any of the opponents to Revolutionary France, be they Jacobin, Thermidorian or led by the directory or even Bonapartist empire. Its likely Louis Stanislaus will be marshalling the French colonial forces to take part and heading a Royalist Bourbon gov't in exile so to speak from Quebec City.

There will be no Francophone states.
 
Well...its a bit of a hard one since one of the major reasons, if not the main reason, for the American revolution was that they no longer needed the UK to defend them. They felt pretty safe without the French on their doorstep. So...a lot of questions before we can come up with the answers.

And anyone who makes a wannabe-clever comment about those French islands near Canada and of course the Carribean gets slapped with a fish. :p

It depends. What was the proportion of the forces in NA that were British and not colonist militia or Iroquois ? Combined with the fact that there were some terrible british leaders (Abercrombie, Braddock), that the militias were very efficient due to the guerrilla warfare used in this theatre. And make the militias win some battles and some land, only for this land to be given back to France in exchange for the return of Hanover. If the colonist think that they will always be the last priority of the Crown, behind Hanover and the British Isles, maybe the effect could be the same. Instead of "we no longuer need to be defended", we could have "we can defend ourselves".
And with less money coming from india (as they don't have the French territories from India) and no war payment from the French, the Parliement will need money. So maybe even more taxes.

If the USA is still formed in this TL, it is likely the Quasi-War becomes a Normal War. Chances are it will just be the equivalent of the war of 1812, but against the French. During the Revolution, especially if Napoleon still comes to power and has the same ideas of a French Empire, the colonies might be occupied by either the USA or UK.

The quasi war could be butterflied away with a POD 40 years earlier, as the revolution could follow another way, the USA can decide to honor it's debt to France, the Jay Treaty could be butterflied away. And yes it could also be a true war if thing go the wrong way. But i don't think the USA alone could occupy all of New France (even if we ignore the unpopulated area), britain could do it, but without a good army and a good navy, that would be difficult for the USA.

But i am more interested in the earlier years (1789-1794), like how do the colonies react to the revolution, which side do they choose (royalist, jacobins, moderate republicans, independance) ?

The Quasi War is a specific result from events in OTL, which might not occur or not even lead to said result TTL. Should we accept such parallelism, then French America would also be largely conservative, dominated by the Church and Land owning Siegneurs with a small class of French merchants and Royalist dependent bureaucrats. It will be a Royalist stronghold and opponent to any revolutionary regime. Thus an ally of Britain and any of the opponents to Revolutionary France, be they Jacobin, Thermidorian or led by the directory or even Bonapartist empire. Its likely Louis Stanislaus will be marshalling the French colonial forces to take part and heading a Royalist Bourbon gov't in exile so to speak from Quebec City.

There will be no Francophone states.

I was pretty much in this state of thought for Québec, but what about la Nouvelle Orléans ? Québec was largely conservative, but i don't know a lot about the Louisiane view. And i don't really see Louis Stanislas going to Québec. He would send someone to rule in his name but i think he will stay in Europe at the start of the revolution.
 
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I don't buy that the colonies will declare independence from the crown if they're still encircled by the French and their allies to the North, West and South. The colonists will make a big fuss over taxes without represetation, but aren't going to be as radical in their tactics. They would worry about being conquered by the French who would certainly be a lot more tyrannical than the British.

Secondly, the British aren't going to be as disciplinarian in their response. Threats have a heck of a tendency to allow a stubborn lord to be lenient - the Quebec Act is a case in point. Small compromises on each side will stop things getting out of hand, and some sort of temporary deal will be forged by the mid-1770s. Then you'd likely get gradual democratic reform on both sides of the Atlantic over the following decades.
 
It depends. What was the proportion of the forces in NA that were British and not colonist militia or Iroquois ?

It wasn't the British Army that mattered so much, it was the British Navy the colonists wanted the protection of.

And make the militias win some battles and some land, only for this land to be given back to France in exchange for the return of Hanover. If the colonist think that they will always be the last priority of the Crown, behind Hanover and the British Isles, maybe the effect could be the same.

The Crown doesn't have absolute power in Britain - it generally has to follow parliament. Even if a Hannover return does get pushed through, parliament will have sided strongly with the British colonists over the German King, so the colonists won't give up hope. Besides, the Seven Years' War is about the last time the King would want Hannover back - George III went out of his way to differentiate himself from his father by insisting he would put British interests first.
 
Louisiane is probably more akin to the Caribbean colonies at least in Orleans...but Upper Louisiane is more akin to the Pays d'en Haut of New France in terms of settlement and attitudes... St. Louis will align with NF.

NO probably Guadeloupe or Martinique...Moderate republicanism wouldn't be out of the question, or even Constitutional Monarchism or the Imperialism of Bonaparte. A haitian style revolution is probably to much of stretch. The plantations are simply not going to be as extensive or as developed.
 
What happens to these colonies during the French Revolution ? Consider this under several types of govenment in Metropolitan France, like a Constitutional Monarchy, a Jacobin-style Republic, a Thermidorian-style Republic and a Napoleonic-style Empire. Do they influence what happen in France ?

Same question for the Indian Colonies.

India first - I think it would depend on who was incharge at the start of the Revolution. Given that it took 6 months to get a message to and from India the govenor would have a massive say in what happened.

America, I think would hold for the monarcy, given the large number of clergy in the colonies. I would also think the Revolution would lead to an influx of new colonists trying to flee the various purges.

On the issue of if the ARW would happen, I don't think so. The British didn't really like fighting their white colonists (except in Ireland), but went for the French full throttle. I don't see the doubt and hesitation shown by the British in the ARW if the French have an army on hand.
 
I don't buy that the colonies will declare independence from the crown if they're still encircled by the French and their allies to the North, West and South. The colonists will make a big fuss over taxes without represetation, but aren't going to be as radical in their tactics. They would worry about being conquered by the French who would certainly be a lot more tyrannical than the British.

Secondly, the British aren't going to be as disciplinarian in their response. Threats have a heck of a tendency to allow a stubborn lord to be lenient - the Quebec Act is a case in point. Small compromises on each side will stop things getting out of hand, and some sort of temporary deal will be forged by the mid-1770s. Then you'd likely get gradual democratic reform on both sides of the Atlantic over the following decades.

The biggest problem for small compromises is that the compromises aren't that small. The Parliement need new taxes to be levied, but they don't want to give the Americans representation. The Colonists wanted representation if they were to pay new taxes (which could be also a fact that they just don't wanted to pay any taxes, knowing the American state of mind :D ). What compromise do you propose ? Knowing that George III think that beig lenient with the colonist would be a sign of weakness.

And for the "fear" of the french, a few victories were won by the Militias against the French in the 7 years war, they know that the French colonies aren't so much populated, and they smuggled with the French.

Frankly, i can see the things getting out of hand, all it need is a spark, which can be lit by a small group of radicals, like the "sons of liberty".
 
That beg the question;

had New France survived (probably due to more peoples like Hugenots, a deeper and more advanced economy, etc), what would have happened in the long run to it?

Would my alternate ancestors started to grumble, and there may be an un-pacific 'divorce', at the end?
 
Offer representation. The Americans don't actually want it (Source: The March of Folly).

More to the point: genuinely try to understand the American point of view from those nonhothead Americans (which means starting to recognize they exist) and sculpt policy around the most effective way to address their sentiments.

That should do for starters.
 
Tyr and Socrates both seem to me to have basically agreed:
Well...its a bit of a hard one since one of the major reasons, if not the main reason, for the American revolution was that they no longer needed the UK to defend them. They felt pretty safe without the French on their doorstep. So...a lot of questions before we can come up with the answers.
Er, but both France and Spain were STILL at our door at the start of the Revolution, and yet we somehow chose that terrible risk (not!) of existing.

I recommend reading our Declaration of Independence - we weren't without reason. Summary: Georgie 3 was a lamer and turned long benevolent neglect into war by dumb aggression.

So, it's pretty likely we still would've gone independent in TTL. Tne negotiations just would've been different (faster because of more French confidence?), and France woulda had more already here, most likely, to help, and maybe less naval inferiority.



On the questions of French colonial fate, I think that in the Nappy case, he's likeliest sell New France along with Louisiana because of the facts pointed out upthread about Royalist officials already dominating and his OTL wish to shift troops from NA to Europe as well as his want for $$. Other cases take some thinking.
 
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Tyr and Socrates both seem to me to have basically agreed:
Er, but both France and Spain were STILL at our door at the start of the Revolution, and yet we somehow chose that terrible risk (not!) of existing.

I recommend reading our Declaration of Independence - we weren't without reason. Summary: Georgie 3 was a lamer and turned long benevolent neglect into war by dumb aggression.

So, it's pretty likely we still would've gone independent in TTL. Tne negotiations just would've been different (faster because of more French confidence?), and France woulda had more already here, most likely, to help, and maybe less naval inferiority.

Not really, Louisianna had about 5 Frenchmen living there and it was pretty far away. Not the immediate threat next door that French Canada was.
 
Not really, Louisianna had about 5 Frenchmen living there and it was pretty far away. Not the immediate threat next door that French Canada was.

90.000 inhabitants an immediate threat ? To 1.5 millions americans ? Ok give it 200.000 assuming a huge emigration movement after the 7 years war. No, still not a threat to me.

And again, even with the "threat" of France, who is going to compromise first ? The American ? Their is no middle way between representation and non-representation. And the English ? Everyone would see them as weak, as they don't have the strength to assert their will on some colonist. Giving them representation would damage the prestige of Britain among the european powers. And it would cause a great uproar on the home islands.
 
90.000 inhabitants an immediate threat ? To 1.5 millions americans ? Ok give it 200.000 assuming a huge emigration movement after the 7 years war. No, still not a threat to me.

I suspect this would go the opposite way. Imagine a Britain that gives up New France after the war for Cuba or Martinique.

British posters ignore, for some reason, that Americans did contribute to the 7 Years War and were taxed for it. Imagine the feelings here.
 
The biggest problem for small compromises is that the compromises aren't that small. The Parliement need new taxes to be levied, but they don't want to give the Americans representation.

Parliament didn't have one monolithic view. Plenty of people in it sided with the colonists and thought they should have representation, including various big players. A little more moderation from the colonists, and eventually the more progressives Whigs would have formed an administration and given them it.

The Colonists wanted representation if they were to pay new taxes (which could be also a fact that they just don't wanted to pay any taxes, knowing the American state of mind :D ). What compromise do you propose ?

Various things could have been done. Ask for block grants from colonial treasuries to pay for the common defence, rather than direct taxes. Appointing a few prominent colonists to the House of Lords. Giving representatives of the colonial assemblies annual meetings with the Privy Council.

Knowing that George III think that beig lenient with the colonist would be a sign of weakness.

That's a ridiculous statement. Allowing some reform would have been greatly welcomed. This is an anachronistic attitude that the Americans hated the British and were just trying to get away from them. A lot of people on both sides want reconciliation, but there was just a bit too much stubborness on both sides (particularly on the British). Changed incentives would do a lot.

And for the "fear" of the french, a few victories were won by the Militias against the French in the 7 years war, they know that the French colonies aren't so much populated, and they smuggled with the French.

Sure, it wasn't as big as the British colonies, but Canada was pretty large, and more importantly, it was part of a global empire with a powerful navy. Not to mention an empire that has increased co-operation with the Spanish who also have a very powerful navy.

Tyr and Socrates both seem to me to have basically agreed:
Er, but both France and Spain were STILL at our door at the start of the Revolution, and yet we somehow chose that terrible risk (not!) of existing.

You might want to check your geography. There were no French or Spanish population centers anywhere near US population centers at the time of independence. Whereas in Canada they were just over the hills from New England.

I recommend reading our Declaration of Independence - we weren't without reason.

Colonies have grievances shock. This has happened plenty of times without it coming to all out blows: look at Canada in 1837. But what happened? The British were more tolerant because they worried about the foreign power just next door - the same situation we'd still have if the French were there.

Summary: Georgie 3 was a lamer and turned long benevolent neglect into war by dumb aggression.

There I was treating history as something other than partisan frat-boy contest. My mistake.

On the questions of French colonial fate, I think that in the Nappy case, he's likeliest sell New France along with Louisiana because of the facts pointed out upthread about Royalist officials already dominating and his OTL wish to shift troops from NA to Europe as well as his want for $$. Other cases take some thinking.

Napoleon sold Louisiana because he didn't have a hope of holding onto it otherwise. That's simply not the case with Canada. If anything he'll be looking to expand into the Ohio valley and make the US a puppet state of the French Empire.

90.000 inhabitants an immediate threat ? To 1.5 millions americans ? Ok give it 200.000 assuming a huge emigration movement after the 7 years war. No, still not a threat to me.

You mean in the same way it wasn't a threat when the British used it as a base to invade the US and set alight to Washington?

And again, even with the "threat" of France, who is going to compromise first ? The American ? Their is no middle way between representation and non-representation. And the English?

It doesn't so much need both sides to back down as for neither side to be so strident in the first place. There are plenty of middle ways between representation and non-representation, as mentioned above: appoint a few malleable Lords; a formal voice in Washington that meets with the privy council, even if outside parliament, etc. There are also compromises on taxation: a lower level of new taxes, a request for a payment to be collected however the colonial assembly saw fit, contribution of troops to a regular army in lieu. Plus other things could be thrown into the bag, like less enforcement of the prohibition of trading with foreign empires etc. Will it be enough to entirely satisfy the colonists? No. Will it be enough to satisfy the colonists that if they keep pushing they will win more reforms, and thus not resort to an independence war? Yes.

Everyone would see them as weak, as they don't have the strength to assert their will on some colonist. Giving them representation would damage the prestige of Britain among the european powers.

Since when has Britain cared what foreign powers thought? The continental absolutists had always thought of British constitutionalism, and giving rights to parliament as week. The British didn't care for a moment, as they saw it as a spirit of liberty. They would paint expanding rights for Englishmen in America as the same thing.

And it would cause a great uproar on the home islands.

Firstly, it wouldn't, as most Brits were pretty ambivalent about the issue, but were generally more supportive than not before the Boston Tea Party inflamed attitudes. Secondly, British public opinion was completely hostile to giving rights to Catholics, yet it didn't stop those reforms.

I suspect this would go the opposite way. Imagine a Britain that gives up New France after the war for Cuba or Martinique. British posters ignore, for some reason, that Americans did contribute to the 7 Years War and were taxed for it. Imagine the feelings here.

Yeah, the colonists would be annoyed by this. But they had previously had to give land back to New France in previous wars. What happened is that they got annoyed and then calmed down as it wasn't a lasting grievance. Also, the British are going to at least keep the Ohio country, which was the main aim of the colonists, so they won't have too many frustrations. Particularly as they wouldn't be able to take Canada without British help.
 
7 Years War

Lets say Wolfe is killed during the seige of quebec, and the french manage to hold on to quebec during the war. Somehow the french keep quebec in the designated treaties that end the war.

France was in terrible financial straits at that time, but a smart king could have perhaps delayed a "french revolution" by reforming france. However lets just assume that that doesnt happen and most of the events that caused the French revolution happen (crop failures, famine, food riots...). If through the course of events, a jacoban dictatorship rises in France,(The Terror 1793-1795), I can see Louis XVI along with his family escaping to quebec and establishing a "govt in exile."

Wishing you well, his majesty,
The Scandinavian Emperor
 
Parliament didn't have one monolithic view. Plenty of people in it sided with the colonists and thought they should have representation, including various big players. A little more moderation from the colonists, and eventually the more progressives Whigs would have formed an administration and given them it.

Have you often seen moderation in a revolution ? Moderation happens when a revolution is finished. And for the few ones who wanted to give the American Representation, they were not enough of them to form a majority in the government.

Various things could have been done. Ask for block grants from colonial treasuries to pay for the common defence, rather than direct taxes. Appointing a few prominent colonists to the House of Lords. Giving representatives of the colonial assemblies annual meetings with the Privy Council.

This is not representation, and they will still be taxed afterwards (stamp tax, tea tax ...)

That's a ridiculous statement. Allowing some reform would have been greatly welcomed. This is an anachronistic attitude that the Americans hated the British and were just trying to get away from them. A lot of people on both sides want reconciliation, but there was just a bit too much stubborness on both sides (particularly on the British). Changed incentives would do a lot.

No, they hated the monarchy and aristocracy. And that was the attitude of George III OTL, an attitude that would not change. For a great majority of the American, George III was a tyrant from the moment he issued the Proclamation of Rebellion.

Sure, it wasn't as big as the British colonies, but Canada was pretty large, and more importantly, it was part of a global empire with a powerful navy. Not to mention an empire that has increased co-operation with the Spanish who also have a very powerful navy.

Pretty large ? The population ratio is 1 to 20, it's like Albania being a threat to Italy ! And yes the navy was powerful but far less than the English or the Spanish one. And the spanish were no threat to anyone as their performance in the 7 years war proved

Colonies have grievances shock. This has happened plenty of times without it coming to all out blows: look at Canada in 1837. But what happened? The British were more tolerant because they worried about the foreign power just next door - the same situation we'd still have if the French were there.

Comparing 1837 with 1775, when some little events, like the American War of Independance, the French Revolution happened between, when so small political advance were made, like the abolition of Slavery, is very relevant to the debate.

You mean in the same way it wasn't a threat when the British used it as a base to invade the US and set alight to Washington?

It's like saying that the American will revolt because they know that they could take on the English (because they will win the war of Independance) so they can take on the French, so they don't have to fear them. And the fact that the French never had a lot of troops in the region.

It doesn't so much need both sides to back down as for neither side to be so strident in the first place. There are plenty of middle ways between representation and non-representation, as mentioned above: appoint a few malleable Lords; a formal voice in Washington that meets with the privy council, even if outside parliament, etc. There are also compromises on taxation: a lower level of new taxes, a request for a payment to be collected however the colonial assembly saw fit, contribution of troops to a regular army in lieu. Plus other things could be thrown into the bag, like less enforcement of the prohibition of trading with foreign empires etc. Will it be enough to entirely satisfy the colonists? No. Will it be enough to satisfy the colonists that if they keep pushing they will win more reforms, and thus not resort to an independence war? Yes.

Or not. The british parliament will never allow representation or even a middle ground. OTL isn't like the American revolted at the first tax the parliament voted. It was a succession of taxes, combined with the sentiment of betrayal due to the interdiction to settle behind the proclamation line, the mandatory housing of British soldiers, the lack of representation, the contempt shown by the British parliament (virtual representation), the mercantilist policy, the intolerable acts and Republicanism. I don't see all these being changed to satisfy the american populace.

Since when has Britain cared what foreign powers thought? The continental absolutists had always thought of British constitutionalism, and giving rights to parliament as week. The British didn't care for a moment, as they saw it as a spirit of liberty. They would paint expanding rights for Englishmen in America as the same thing.

The british ? You're talking about the small bunch of aristocrats and merchants who could participate in politics ?


Firstly, it wouldn't, as most Brits were pretty ambivalent about the issue, but were generally more supportive than not before the Boston Tea Party inflamed attitudes. Secondly, British public opinion was completely hostile to giving rights to Catholics, yet it didn't stop those reforms.

It would cause uproar as there was no true representation in Britain too (for example there was no MP from manchester). And for your second point, Britain wouldn't have lost a major war fifteen years before.

Yeah, the colonists would be annoyed by this. But they had previously had to give land back to New France in previous wars. What happened is that they got annoyed and then calmed down as it wasn't a lasting grievance. Also, the British are going to at least keep the Ohio country, which was the main aim of the colonists, so they won't have too many frustrations. Particularly as they wouldn't be able to take Canada without British help.

In my scenario, they wouldn't be able to keep the Ohio country. And in the previous war, they didn't participated as much as in the 7 years war (wich begun earlier in America), lands were won anyway, and the issue of western settlement wasn't as strong as after in 1775. And in otl, they were at the door of Québec city IIRC, without the help of anyone and with the brits against them, so i think they could take it.
 
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