WI France fights to the end in WWII?

Laryng

Banned
USN 1940-41
15 old battleships (Maryland, Colorado, West Virginia, California, Tennessee, New Mexico, Idaho, Mississippi, Arizona, Pennsylvania, Oklahoma, Nevada, Texas, New York, Arkansas)
2 new battleships (North Carolina, Washington)
18 Heavy Cruisers
20 Light Cruisers
7 Fleet Carriers (Lexington, Saratoga, Ranger, Enterprise, Yorktown, Hornet, Wasp)
112 Submarines (many old S-Boats, many carrying the worthless Mark XIV torpedo:eek:)
177 Destroyers (+50 more if not sent to the UK under Lend-Lease)
1 Escort Carrier (Long Island)
No Battlecruisers
No Destroyer Escorts
No Light Carriers (Langley has been converted to a seaplane carrier)

Sorry, but the USN could eat TWO Marine Nationale's with out too much trouble:p

Sorry, but what are you arguing? I brought the French numbers so that we can have some data on possible allied assets, not for some chest thumping with USA.
 

Archibald

Banned
I was thinking, after Fall Geb with the German Army Closing on Paris, could the third french republic, just keep moving locations and fighting on?



After Paris fell, i would assume they would move South to Marsellie or Bordeaux, the Germans would continue south and the French would have to Relocate off the mainland, I would think Oran, or Algeris would become the new center of the french government, if that were to fall, the Government would likely relcoated to West Africa, with dakar as a capital, If Somehow that were to fall the French could go in a number of Directions, they could A: go off to French Guyana B: Go to the isolated possesion of St. Pierre and Miquelon C: Go to french Equatorial africa
If they went to French Equatorial Africa and Even that fell Magascar, French Somalialand, Syria or Even French Indochina/ New Caledonia.

After that do they just form a government in Exile in Britian or do they finally give up?

Three words: FRANCE-FIGHTS-ON !

This is the exact alt-history you search.
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=159674
 
Sorry, but what are you arguing? I brought the French numbers so that we can have some data on possible allied assets, not for some chest thumping with USA.

Once again, as I said in post #76, this goes back to Xgentis and post #43. Read it and get back to me.:p
 
The french navy is called "Marine Nationale" not marine navale witch don't make mutch sense in french. And yes the allies would have naval superiority since at the time the french navy was the second largest in the world behind the RN.

You're right - typo! :eek:
 
From what has been said already:

1) Anglo'French control North Africa: Italy loses it's African empire.

2) Anglo/French navies control the Med: inflicting losses on the Italian navy, but likely to sustain losses from Lw support in Sicilly.

3) With a longer Battle of France, and Britain not alone, a BoB as OTL seems impossible - maybe smaller scale attacks at more specific targets - industrial and ports, rather than the airfields.

3) Personally don't see Corsica as being defensible - too near the mainland, too far from 'Free' French supplies.

4) France still gets the war material ordered from the US, rather than it ending up with the UK (as per OTL).

However more unkown:
a) What Germany does next - help Italy, invade Russia?
b) What can the Anglo/French do - it'll take some time to train and re-equipe? I wonder would Egypt, like Algeria make a contribution in manpower to the forces!?
c) What effect on the Pacific War - can't see it stopping one?
 
From what has been said already:

3) Personally don't see Corsica as being defensible - too near the mainland, too far from 'Free' French supplies.

However more unkown:
a) What Germany does next - help Italy, invade Russia?
b) What can the Anglo/French do - it'll take some time to train and re-equipe? I wonder would Egypt, like Algeria make a contribution in manpower to the forces!?
c) What effect on the Pacific War - can't see it stopping one?

Corsica's ability to feed itself while under constant air attack is the question. I personally agree with you.

a) Hitler's obsession with the USSR was absolute. Baring ASB's, he going in. A "mere French Colonial holdout" won't change his mind.
b) The Egyptians are NOT joining the Allies. Too close to Palestine, less close ties to England.
c) The real trick is convincing Churchill that the Japanese represented a serious threat at all. I doubt he will send the forces needed.
 
From what has been said already:

1) Anglo'French control North Africa: Italy loses it's African empire.

2) Anglo/French navies control the Med: inflicting losses on the Italian navy, but likely to sustain losses from Lw support in Sicilly.

Yes on both.

3) With a longer Battle of France, and Britain not alone, a BoB as OTL seems impossible - maybe smaller scale attacks at more specific targets - industrial and ports, rather than the airfields.

3) Personally don't see Corsica as being defensible - too near the mainland, too far from 'Free' French supplies.

If Hitler decide to take out Corsica I don't see BoB in 1940. Corsica can be taken but in my opinion it will make for a Crete-analogy ie. no more large scale German paradrops.
With no paras what will a threat to invade Britain be worth?

4) France still gets the war material ordered from the US, rather than it ending up with the UK (as per OTL).

Indeed. And more like Lend-Lease.

However more unkown:
a) What Germany does next - help Italy, invade Russia?

Probably goes for Russia, contend that the WAllies can't strike at mainland Europe - and Germany can't have a go at either.
Why help Musso? Theres nothing in it for Hitler. He already has French, Low Countries, Danish and Norwegian industri and agriculture. Most of the Balkans are allies except Yugoslavia and Greece - but what about them. What would Hitler want them for?

b) What can the Anglo/French do - it'll take some time to train and re-equipe? I wonder would Egypt, like Algeria make a contribution in manpower to the forces!?

Watch whats going on in mainland Europe and wait while building up and modernizing forces. Order tanks and aircraft in the USA.
Build the Dakar - Oran railway.
Build the Tunesia - Egypt railway.

Egypt would not make a contribution but French North Africa may given better civil stature for others than French.
Which might backfire or take the steam out of NA nationalism.
The second would change Europe all over post WWII.

Build up a strategic reserve in the Middle East.

c) What effect on the Pacific War - can't see it stopping one?

Probably not but my take would be that the Japs won't be given access to French Indochina. Thats a major change making for a much more secure Singapore!

Other unknown:
The interesting thing would be what happens in Yugoslavia ITTL - civil war? Would be my guess. And then the third Balkan War where the WAllies would support Yugoslavia and Greece. That would bring Hitler in of course.

Would Stalin be contend with what he got in the Ribbentrop-Molotov deal?
Hitler AFAIK didn't consult Uncle Joe before guaranteeing the borders of Romania after its being chewed up by Soviets, Hungary and Bulgaria!

The Soviets due to the Winter War may not look like what the world thought but neither may the Germans not having totally defeated the French and Italians thrown out of Africa!
 
How long would this remnent France be able to maintain and upgrade its military? Without the factories and economy of France proper, what is the industrial and economic ability of the French empire?
 
How long would this remnent France be able to maintain and upgrade its military? Without the factories and economy of France proper, what is the industrial and economic ability of the French empire?

Naval works at some North African ports and probably limited craft-shop like "industry" scattered around but it would be living on the goodwill of the USA and whats available when that country enters war too.
The plus there is the positive attitude of the USA to let France access its production of aircraft as well as France still have her own gold reserve.
 
Just shows that appearances are deceptive.

I wouldn't use the term 'shock and awe' to describe an army that sits and watches as Poland, Denmark and Norway is conquered and does everything to avoid battle.

As for being reborn then Dien Bien Phu is not a good renaissance.

Fighting semi armed people in the Ivory Coast may offer some opportunities for the French Army to achieve glory:rolleyes:

Hey, it will a be quite a shock for the French soldiers men who went and fought and died in Norway to learn that they sat and watched and did everything they could to avoid battle. Thank God you were here to re-establish the truth, Devolved, eh?

Oh, yes : :rolleyes: indeed...
 
Top