WI: France ditches the Maginot Line concept?

The story has always been presented to me like this...

WWI ends, France decides never to allow that to repeat itself. The Army stubbornly decides to invest in static fortifications, essentially fighting the previous war, while DeGaulle's pleas to invest in aircraft/tanks fall on deaf ears. Then, in 1940, the Germans largely bypass the Maginot Line, and the rest is history.

What would happen if the French invest their Maginot Line resources elsewhere, such as DeGaulle's heavy tanks and planes? From what I understand, the German victory in France was far from guaranteed as it was. How would Blitzkrieg fare against a better prepared France?
 
No. The whole point of the Maginot Line was to prevent the Germans from attacking Alsace-Lorraine. You see, the French only had a few troops left over from World War I, so they figured that they would just fortify Alsace-Lorraine so they could send all the best troops to the Franco-Belgian Border. The real mistake was that they neglected to guard the Ardennes, which is where the Germans attacked.
 
The Maginot Line was expensive, but not massively so and France had more tanks than Germany. The Germans made better use of their tanks, through a combination of 3-man turrets, allowing the commander to focus on his main task, tank radios for quicker commands and better organisation. This, combined with Auftragstaktik, allowed the Wehrmacht to completely overwhelm the slow French OODA loop and have the French generals constantly responding to them.

So France needed better organisation, better tactics, much better Command & Control (i.e. radios) and some better design choices, not more tanks & planes.

Lastly, the whole raison d'être of the Maginot Line was to force the Germans into bypassing it and attack through Belgium, buying the army time to prepare a counter attack in Belgium, which failed due to aforementioned reasons & the Germans taking another route through Belgium.
 

Abhakhazia

Banned
I always thought the best strategy was extend the Maginot line, up along the entire western border of Germany after the Nazis took power. Then Hitler had two options, push over a heavily fortified line, or push over giagantic mountains. His choice.
 
I always thought the best strategy was extend the Maginot line, up along the entire western border of Germany after the Nazis took power. Then Hitler had two options, push over a heavily fortified line, or push over giagantic mountains. His choice.


They wanted to but....


1) It costs a fortune and France does not have that much cash interwar.

2) They thought that the Belgians would give them a hand by using their own forts but the Belgians declared Nuetrality.

3) The line was breached the only time it was attacked and that was a probe so it was no where near as Impenertratable as it was cracked up to be.
 
I always thought the best strategy was extend the Maginot line, up along the entire western border of Germany after the Nazis took power. Then Hitler had two options, push over a heavily fortified line, or push over giagantic mountains. His choice.

The French recognised that, but don't forget that the northern part of the German border is up against Belgium, not France. The Belgians were meant to carry on the fortifications. In the event they didn't reach the same standard, which left the French with a dilemma - accept a gap in the line, or continue the fortifications along their border with Belgium. If they took the second option, the Belgians would (rightly) have perceived that they were going to be hung out to dry in the event of war with Germany. At the time the war broke out, the French had not managed to find a way to live with the political consequences of that and so the issue had not been resolved.

Just my $0.02 worth.
 
There is still a question of doctrine. Tank warfare was still big unknown for everybody and everybody had a different idea how it should be done. If France ditches ML it is still stuck with their doctrine which proved inferior to German one. And the problem is that French have no way of knowing it until Germans come knocking.

One possible way to overcome is if French take notice of developments of deep penetrations both by SU and Germany. French doctrine will still be defensive but they could try to overcome that with better defences. And since doctrine was built around fire that would mean AT guns.
 
There were peoples in the french army that was already calling for mechanised warfare even before the war was started the old fart in charge of course did not listen.
 
There were peoples in the french army that was already calling for mechanised warfare even before the war was started the old fart in charge of course did not listen.

The problem is giving them a reason to listen. The oldbies didn't exactly embrace everything the tank-nuts wanted in Germany, either.

"What if the old guard weren't morons?" is not a very useful question, though it echos the reason why the old guard weren't persuaded - the tank nuts were (in Germany, I'm not sure about France) undiplomatic to say the least.

Not a good way to convince men who believe that tanks aren't enough to change tried and true methods.
 
"What if the old guard weren't morons?" is not a very useful question, though it echos the reason why the old guard weren't persuaded - the tank nuts were (in Germany, I'm not sure about France) undiplomatic to say the least.

Not a good way to convince men who believe that tanks aren't enough to change tried and true methods.

One of the french tanknuts was charles de gaulle. Need i say more?:)
 

b12ox

Banned
And some think the german concept of massed tank were stolen from his ideas. Imagine what would had happen (if it's true) if the French listened to him while the German ditched the concept :p
French military doctrine was flawed, that is if they had any military doctine before the war. The germans worked hard to escape starvation while the french drunk wine and ate cheese. The use of planes and tanks in sudden chain of assaults benefits offensive war. The french had no reason to fight offensive war. Catch 22 against the French.
 

HJ Tulp

Donor
French military doctrine was flawed, that is if they had any military doctine before the war. The germans worked hard to escape starvation while the french drunk wine and ate cheese. The use of planes and tanks in sudden chain of assaults benefits offensive war. The french had no reason to fight offensive war. Catch 22 against the French.

Yeah. Well. No.
 
What if the French had extened the Maginot Line just a bit longer, up past the Ardennes?

All of a sudden, the Germans pretty much have to repeat the Schlieffen Plan and do exactly what the French are planning for.
 
The question that the OP needs to clarify is; What have the French replaced Static Defence Doctrine with?


Just 'ditching' a doctrinal concept NEVER happens in all of history, what you see is one doctrine being replaced by another one, that is suppriour for fighting with the weapons and manpower available.

For instance in Viet Nam, we saw the Viet Cong replace conventional warfare tactics, with those of asymmetric warfare, because in those early battles they got their arses whooped.

Hence what doctrine is better than Static Defence that can cope with Frances position during the 1920s and 1930s?


Considerations:
1. France lost a hell of a lot of men during the Great War. Therefore every solider has to have a better 'kill efficency' for future wars. In principle this means better equipment.

2. France has run up a fair amount of debt fighting the Great War, therefore high cost programs cannot be budgeted. In principle this means non cutting edge technologies and reduced defence expenditure.

3. France has a colonial empire, naval equipment must make up a fair amount of the armed force expenditure.

4. Frances future enemies are likely to be the Germans again.

5. France doesn't want to fight on French soil again due to the tremendous cost in rebuilding.

6. The Great War was the second industrial war, in which European Nations learnt the concepts of arsenal and mass weapon production (the Americans learnt this in the American Civil War in 1864). In principle this means standardisation of equipment and economies of scale.


In principle the Static Defence Doctrine with hte Maigot Line fulfils the vast majority of all these considerations, and so the historical French doctrine was in many ways the perfect decision to take.

Only with hindsight can we see that the lack of a full line into Belgium and the fall of Czechslovakia allowing the Germans to perfect assault tactics meant that the breeches of the Maigot line and through the Ardennes sunk that strategy.


However what we might want to consider is what if the French, line the Russians develop a tank school during the late 1920s and early 1930s that perfects the 'infantry tank' concept, with larger turrets, fast cross country mobility, defence in depth and operational deep battle?

This coupled with the Static Defence Doctrine would mean that the French would prepare a deeper front concept, rather than during the expansions of the line during the 1930s they would opt to harden the rear areas and general Picardy and Champagne region.

With better tanks, and an elastic defence doctrine coupled with local hardened positions it would mean that the French would have been able to blunt the Ardennes attack in 1940 and the BEF would have been able to close in from the Calais region. Overall creating a very similar situation to WW1 until the German gamble collapses entirely from the fact the Panzer I tanks armed with little more than machine-guns are being comprehensively being taken out by French infantry tanks and AT guns.

The Armoured Scherpunk concept would have been completely discredited, and the weakened German armed forces would have been forced onto the defensive as the British and French rapidly reconquer Belgium and move into North-west Germany, since their tanks and tactics are specifically aimed at breaking trench defence, which is what the Germans will fall back to because their 'new doctrine' completely failed them.

It is likely that Hitler gets taken out at some point internally as the French and British having liberated Belgium begin themselves to dig in.

At some point Holland to will be liberated/get in on the fight and with a much larger front, and with less ability to intervene in North Africa or even begin Barbarossa the Germans will likely be stuck in another war they cannot win.

Since the Germans historically never were able to upgrade large numbers of their troops to the automatic SMG weapons of the MP 40 and similar (unlike the movies), the Allies with the Thompson, BAR, Sten, Lanchester and other similar weapons will overall be able to break the trench stalemate more often and with fewer casualties.

This war could very much be over by mid/end 1942. This time Germany will likely be destroyed and dissolved into Bavaria-Austria and Prussia-Saxony with Poland getting back all its territories in the west to help prevent Stalin’s Soviet ambitions.

However as a result of no Russian front, the Russians may never get to full Superpower status, yet without the horrors of the Eastern front, they may likely have a population explosion during the Cold War that leads to them outnumbering this TLs version of NATO and consequently being the economically dominant nation of the world. Thus they may end up winning the Cold War and we today would live in a pro-socialist world, rather than pro-capitalist.
 
The French recognised that, but don't forget that the northern part of the German border is up against Belgium, not France. The Belgians were meant to carry on the fortifications. In the event they didn't reach the same standard, which left the French with a dilemma - accept a gap in the line, or continue the fortifications along their border with Belgium. If they took the second option, the Belgians would (rightly) have perceived that they were going to be hung out to dry in the event of war with Germany. At the time the war broke out, the French had not managed to find a way to live with the political consequences of that and so the issue had not been resolved.

Just my $0.02 worth.

Why couldn't the French negotiate to go into Belgium and build the fortifications themselves?
 
I remember reading some interesting material which suggested that, in the 1920s, the French were moving towards an advanced armoured doctrine-but the Great Depression and various political considerations also moved it away.

The Belgians, as a neutral country, also didn't want to have fortifications being built across it.
 
Belgium was a French ally until 1934, and we did build our own fortifications, which ignored the Ardennes just like the French ones did.
 
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