WI France and GB had attacked Germany in late 1939/1940?

I know that's extremly difficult politically speaking. But, politics notwithstanding, was it militarly feasible? If so, how early can an attack take place (Assuming the war starts when it did IOTL)??? Would the French attack alone, or along with the British? How far could they have gotten??? Would Germany be forced to surrender and abandon Poland? Or would she be able to win rather easily this two-fronts war, and not only conquer poland AND repell the allies, but also advance far deep in the west, putting France out of combat???

I know this probably has been done before, but I think it's an interisting Pod.

(Before anyone mentions it, I do know the French did advance into German territory for a few miles; but I'm talking about a serious advance, deep into German territory)
 

King Thomas

Banned
If they did it within days of war breaking out they would have a chance of success as almost all Hitler's troops were in the east at the time.
 
I doubt France could win the war, the British Army simply not being capable of major operations, but if the offensive was launched in September it seems plausible that the entire Rhineland might have been overrun, a serious blow to Germany's war machine and a major buffer for France.

It might also have reduced the devotion to the Maginot Line if the front is far in front of it.
 
It is probably not going to save Poland, but the Rhine would be French. Having that huge industrial center in allied hands and out of the Germans is big(and would make Germany's invasion of the Low Countries look weird on a map).

I also wonder if the inept French staff might learn anything about 20th century warfare from the offensive.
 

Redbeard

Banned
The French and certainly not the British Army was ready for major offensive operations in 1939. Not because they lacked offensive doctrine, but because it lacked everythings from gaiter buttons to anti-tank guns.

Had they known that the Germans were far from their believed strength (esp. Luftwaffe) and that they didn't have arty ammo for beyond the Polish campaign, they might have attacked though - and had considerable success. Facing them were only a small number of second rate German Divisions, which even an ill-prepared French Army ought to be able to crush. The French advance will be slow, meticolous and crushing, and the question is how far they will have advanced once Poland is done with and the Wehrmacht sent to the west. If the French offensive starts and appear succesful before 17th of September I'm not sure Stalin will invade Poland and that will increase German troubles to finish Poland in time to turn towards the French. Stalin not fulfilling his part of the Molotov-Rippentrop treaty will further increase German panic, but most important is I guess whether the French have reached Ruhr and can defend it by the time the Germans are ready in the west (Oct-Nov?). If Ruhr is on French hands the Germans will be hopelessly behind in the armsrace (no ammo and most of the ammo factories gone) and I guess Hitler will suddenly die and some kind of peace found.

Regards

Steffen Redbeard
 

Markus

Banned
Like me and others said: The Germans had nothing at western border! A mere 20 infantry divisions, 10 Landwehr(=milita) Divisions manned by ill-trained and ill-equipped and very unenthusiastic WW1-veterans, no tanks, few planes.

On Sept. 3rd the French had already 80 division fully mobilized, the RAF had as many fighters and bombers as the Luftwaffe and the French air force was nothing to sneer at either.

And last but not least did Germany neither have the fuel or the ammo for another campaign.
 
For the Allies to launch an offensive while Germany is fighting in Poland the French Military Intelligence reports need to be accurate. Or British intelligence needs to do its own assessment instead of relying entirely on the French. This brings up the interesting and as far as I am aware still unresolved issue, of whether French intelligence services were simply incompetent or were compromised by German infiltration or far right sympathisers in their ranks.

If the Allied commanders and political leaders have accurate information that their military resources are far superior to the Germans then a decision to launch a substantial attack in the west to try and help Poland is probable. Just how successful this offensive would be is questionable. The so-called Saar Offensive by the French early in the war clearly showed that the French Army was far superior to the German defending force yet the offensive sputtered to a halt and the troops withdrew! Then the Phoney War settled in.

During the only French offensive of the war, the attackers easily advanced without facing any serious opposition. The generals may have thought they were being drawn into a trap of encirclement based on the faulty intelligence reports. There was no evidence of any large German force in the area reported by recon yet they still relied on the previous intelligence assessments and ordered the offensive halted. With accurate intelligence from early on then this hesitation may not exist.

I agree that if a vigorous offensive was launched that saw the French Army advance deeper into Germany and capture the industrial heartland of Germany, Stalin may not honour the secret clauses of the Non-Aggression Pact and may not choose to occupy parts of Poland. If this was the case then it would cause very serious difficulties indeed for the Germans. An urgent reassessment by the USSR may even lead to a discontinuation of the trade agreements with Germany and a rapprochement with the Allies.

Even if Germany managed to defeat Poland on their own, they would need to keep forces in the east to counter any potential hostile moves from the Soviet Union. More importantly, where would the Germans get their essential raw materials like oil and wheat from now?
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
I know that's extremly difficult politically speaking. But, politics notwithstanding, was it militarly feasible? If so, how early can an attack take place (Assuming the war starts when it did IOTL)??? Would the French attack alone, or along with the British? How far could they have gotten??? anyone mentions it, I do know the French did advance into German territory for a few miles; but I'm talking about a serious advance, deep into German territory)


Berlin............
 
I accept that it would have been a huge military gamble for the West to invade Germany. I do not think that the then leaderships in Britain and France would have gone for that.

However if such could have happened, if Germany started losingA LOT of territory in the West might Stalin's calculations have changed. If the Anglo French Alliance looked like winning I doubt he would have wanted to acquire such an enemy,

The Soviet invasion of Poland might have been prevented. Furthermore perhaps Stalin's economic cooperation with the Nazis might have been less committed.
 
So... What will happen After the Allied have taken the Rhineland? How the war will end?

There would probably be a coup in Germany, and even if there were not it would be irrelevant as the Allies would be occupying much of the Ruhr. The Germans would get about halfway through 1940.
 
There would probably be a coup in Germany, and even if there were not it would be irrelevant as the Allies would be occupying much of the Ruhr. The Germans would get about halfway through 1940.

Hmm.. Will France try to keep the Ruhr after the war?

And how things will go in post-war Europe? War with the SU?
 
I have to disagree with others. While it may have been feasable, I don't see the military pushing very far. The British and French deployed to defend. Thus, morale would not be very encouraging for an invasion.

Even if there was little german military presence there, what was there I think could atleast make the invasion difficult.

I don't think any sort of uprising in Germany would happen and it would only take a short time for the army in the east to return to defend Berlin and push all the French and British forces out.

Besides, once that force is gone, France and everywhere else is open. Western Europe would be practically empty. There would be no British force to retreat back to the Isles and the Maginot line could be driven right through.
 
The defensive mindset is indeed the problem.
Perhaps French tradition could be appealed to and the natural barrier of the rhine suggested as somewhere to hide behind though?
 
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