WI: France and Austria entered the Anglo-Spanish War (1727-1729)

France was bound by the Treaty of Hanover of 1725 to aid the English, and the Austrians were similarly bound to the Spanish through the Treaty of Vienna of 1725. However, neither country honored their alliances when the Anglo-Spanish War broke out in 1727, leading to a breakdown and subsequent reversal of alliances. If the French and Austrians had intervened, would the Anglo-Spanish War have become a pan-European war on the scale of the Seven Years' War? I also remember reading somewhere that many observers at the time compared the alliances of the 1720s to those of the Thirty Years' War era, with Austria and Spain allied against the French and British. Would the conflict have repeated that devastating war and reaped havoc upon Germany? Or would something completely different have happened?
 
True, but since the 18th century was the era of the Stately Quadrille, it probably wouldn't have lasted. Maybe they would've been allies for one or two wars, but they probably would've gone back to being enemies sooner or later.
 

raharris1973

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France was bound by the Treaty of Hanover of 1725 to aid the English, and the Austrians were similarly bound to the Spanish through the Treaty of Vienna of 1725. However, neither country honored their alliances when the Anglo-Spanish War broke out in 1727, leading to a breakdown and subsequent reversal of alliances. If the French and Austrians had intervened, would the Anglo-Spanish War have become a pan-European war on the scale of the Seven Years' War? I also remember reading somewhere that many observers at the time compared the alliances of the 1720s to those of the Thirty Years' War era, with Austria and Spain allied against the French and British. Would the conflict have repeated that devastating war and reaped havoc upon Germany? Or would something completely different have happened?

Probably not the devastation of Germany. I think Franco British victory would happen too quickly for that.

What I would expect would be Spanish loss of a few colonies before the French and British call it a day.

I wonder if the Dutch stay neutral or join a side. Them joining the Austrian Spanish side would be more balance of power ish and aid financial heft to Spain Austria and the Dutch could see it as a way to keep Habsburg Belgium as a buffer against France.

It does leave the Dutch exposed in the colonial realm though. Perhaps we end up with a bigger French Guiana or a French Cape, and a British East Indies.

If the Dutch join the Anglo-French they can pick some minor gains of Spain (part of the PI, Margarita island) and keep their own safe. Theoretically they could split Austrian Belgiumwith France but if that started to happen Britain would begin to worry if it was on the wrong side.
 
Probably not the devastation of Germany. I think Franco British victory would happen too quickly for that.

What I would expect would be Spanish loss of a few colonies before the French and British call it a day.

I wonder if the Dutch stay neutral or join a side. Them joining the Austrian Spanish side would be more balance of power ish and aid financial heft to Spain Austria and the Dutch could see it as a way to keep Habsburg Belgium as a buffer against France.

It does leave the Dutch exposed in the colonial realm though. Perhaps we end up with a bigger French Guiana or a French Cape, and a British East Indies.

If the Dutch join the Anglo-French they can pick some minor gains of Spain (part of the PI, Margarita island) and keep their own safe. Theoretically they could split Austrian Belgiumwith France but if that started to happen Britain would begin to worry if it was on the wrong side.

I think if the Dutch joined, they would've joined the Anglo-French since they were part of the Quadruple Alliance against the Spanish. Also, I think that at this particular point in the 1720s, the Spanish were briefly once again seen as the major Catholic threat to the Netherlands for the first time since the mid 17th century, when they were replaced by the French. Dutch involvement probably wouldn't have really mattered though, since the Golden Age was over and they were pretty weak by then.
 

raharris1973

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I think if the Dutch joined, they would've joined the Anglo-French since they were part of the Quadruple Alliance against the Spanish. Also, I think that at this particular point in the 1720s, the Spanish were briefly once again seen as the major Catholic threat to the Netherlands for the first time since the mid 17th century, when they were replaced by the French. Dutch involvement probably wouldn't have really mattered though, since the Golden Age was over and they were pretty weak by then.

Why were the Spanish seen as a threat again at this time? They did not even own Belgium anymore. Also, otl was it not the Austrians that rounded out the quadruple?
 
Why were the Spanish seen as a threat again at this time? They did not even own Belgium anymore. Also, otl was it not the Austrians that rounded out the quadruple?

Quadruple was Britain, France, Austria and the Dutch versus Spain and Savoy.

Britain and France were allies of mutual convenience in the 30 Years Peace - France had a child king with no clear cut heir to the throne until the 1720s, and then the king grew up and had only one son, which meant that France balanced on a knife point. To say nothing of Franco-Spanish animosity caused by the failure of the various betrothals between Versailles and Madrid.

England got a king with a likewise wobbly claim to the throne. The rightful claimant (James Francis Edward Stuart) was backed by the Spanish and wasn't liked by the Régent. So, France and England drifted together out of mutual interest. So much so that there was even talks (once the Spanish infanta was sent home) to solidify the alliance by marrying the king of England's eldest granddaughter to the French king. It foundered on the shoals of religion though. George I held the throne because he WASN'T Catholic, and ro marry the Princess Anne off to a Catholic would alienate a lot of support.
 
the Dutch don't want France to take Austrian Netherlands. Nor do they want a resurgent Spain. Britain can play havoc on Dutch shipping. Dutch probably stays neutral unless someone presses too close to their interests.

Isn't the Austrian line of Succession also razor thin at this point?
 

raharris1973

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What are potential British and French wartime objectives against Spain, and the Austrian Habsburgs?

In North America – Britain gaining the Floridas


France gaining Texas to the Rio Grande (or, more ambitiously, Texas, New Mexico and Alta California)


Potential other areas of interest – La Plata? Uruguay? Venezuela?


In Caribbean, Puerto Rico for Britain, eastern Santo-Domingo for France?


Philippines to France, or Britain, or split


In the Med, Mallorca or Ibiza?


Possibly Sicily or Naples for France, with the other for Britain-


Possibly Milan for France, maybe with a British Sicily - some of this all would be at Austrian and not Spanish expense.


Against Austria – claiming Austrian Netherlands for France would be too contentious most likely. Milan might be a little more tolerable


Ottomans would probably like the Franco-British coalition and join it to recover territory from Austria


Dutch most likely neutral. If they went against Anglo-French, they would just be a victim, losing Caribbean and African and Indian colonies to Britain and France. If they went anti Austro-Spanish, they have potential to gain some very small Spanish islands, part of the Philippines perhaps, Santa Margarita island, at very topmost, Puerto Rico, but nothing bigger at Spain’s expense. Probably would not want to acquire Austrian Netherlands, even if it is on offer potentially.


Possibly the Dutch could take Ostend Company ships, money and factories in Indian Ocean as booty.


Prussians – Silesia? Are they strong enough? Or if the Prussians switch to pro-imperial side, they go for Hanover, or Dutch borderlands? Or compensation at Polish expense. Hanover or Saxony could be targets, although complete liquidation would be difficult, and it is basically hard to see the Austro-Spanish side win.


In OTL, the French were side-switchers.


Knock on effects for later wars –


Prolonged Anglo-French peace means colonies stay loyal or can be put down and do not have prospect of sufficient help.


But, presuming they turn on each other, Britain could end up with all of French North America.


Other compromises could include, an Anglo-French transcontinental boundary leaving Britain with Ohio country and French with Canada.
 

raharris1973

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See this map of the European line-up at the time:

600px-Alliances_in_Europe_1725-1730-lil.png
 
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