WI founding of the German empire in 1815

One point. Had Franz resumed the Imperial Crown in 1815, does it become hereditary in his house, or remain elective?

If the latter, then, if Ferdinand still abdicates in 1848, is there any chance that the Princes might elect Frederick William as his successor?

The "momarchical principle" was a key part of the Congress of Vienna, to the point where republics like the Dutch were converted into hereditary monarchies, so I think it would be the former.
 
The Frankfurt Assembly did offer the Imperial Crown to King Frederick William IV of Prussia not the Austrian Emperors Ferdinand, or the young Franz Josef. History has recorded that the Assembly's hoped for unification failed when King Frederick William IV refused an "Imperial Crown from the gutter" as it was not offered to him by the other German Princes. If the Frankfurt Assembly did not choose Prussia, neither did it choose Austria, but it did choose Prussia's king not the Austrian Emperor.

To be fair, they offered it to Friedrich Wilhelm, with an Austrian archduke as the regent of said German empire. I don't know why or why not they didn't offer the crown to Ferdinand/Franz Josef if their (great)-uncle was a suitable enough candidate to stand as vicar/regent. Could make for an interesting development if FJ gets the throne and then puts his name in the ring for emperor of the 1848 German Second Reich. At first no one takes it seriously, since they're offering it to Friedrich Wilhelm IV, but when Prussia turns it down, they start thinking, "well hey, that Habsburg bloke is a lot younger than Freddie, he might be more open to taking a 'crown from the gutter'". It would need FJ to consider putting his name down in the first place. Maybe his great uncle does it to curry favour with FJ, and then when it comes to it, the young emperor is sort of "forced" to become döppelkaiser...
 
They didn't offer it to Austria for several reasons!

1. the greater Austrian solution (incl complete Austrian Empire) would mean including the non german regions with already active nationalism into a majority german state, which would make it instable from the start.
2. the greater German solution would mean the disolution of Austria something the Habsburg would not have accepted.
3. the Austrian Prime Minister introduced a centralised constitution for the entire Austrian Empire, thus delegates finally had to give up their hopes for a "Greater Germany".
 
Here are three interesting sources: use auto translate (German sources are the best)

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurter_Reformakte (Austria put forward the Frankfurt Reform Act which attempted to create a Federation)

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutscher_Krieg#Verlauf (This source admits that France and Austria agreed that France would again the entire Rhine)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Langensalza_(1866) (Battle of Langesalza is the reason why the Austrians lost but also why the Prussians could have lost as well)
 
Here are three interesting sources: use auto translate (German sources are the best)

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurter_Reformakte (Austria put forward the Frankfurt Reform Act which attempted to create a Federation)

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutscher_Krieg#Verlauf (This source admits that France and Austria agreed that France would again the entire Rhine)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Langensalza_(1866) (Battle of Langesalza is the reason why the Austrians lost but also why the Prussians could have lost as well)
Translate it accurately though, France wouldn't gain the entire Rhine, it would be some sort of vassal state shared between France and the German Confederation.
 
Translate it accurately though, France wouldn't gain the entire Rhine, it would be some sort of vassal state shared between France and the German Confederation.

Where did the requirement for specificity come into this, I did not see the seven rules of logic hanging on the forum discussion when I walked in.

I hereby shall always:
  • Translate facts accurately
  • To their exact specificity where and when required
  • Not distort them through interpretation
  • Not generalise when speaking or writing regarding the information
  • Not maliciously use facts in acts of propaganda
  • Cite an academic source when the information is used
  • Always base arguments with factual sources
If in violation of the above you are hereby criticized.

I am guilty of generalising a piece of information because I have studied it too much and thought the people in the same discussion knew the same knowledge.
 
They didn't offer it to Austria for several reasons!

1. the greater Austrian solution (incl complete Austrian Empire) would mean including the non german regions with already active nationalism into a majority german state, which would make it instable from the start.
.
there were a lot of germans in hungary, would be a reverse poles in germany, ironically in a super austria they would thrive as they've the united protection all german states

but yeah the hasburgs wanted an austria indentity not a german one..
 

Perkeo

Banned
They didn't offer it to Austria for several reasons!

1. the greater Austrian solution (incl complete Austrian Empire) would mean including the non german regions with already active nationalism into a majority german state, which would make it instable from the start.
2. the greater German solution would mean the disolution of Austria something the Habsburg would not have accepted.
3. the Austrian Prime Minister introduced a centralised constitution for the entire Austrian Empire, thus delegates finally had to give up their hopes for a "Greater Germany".
For point 1 and 2, the Paulskirche constitution proposed the solution of explicitly allowing personal unions with non-German states. It’s No 3 that killed Great Germany.
 

Teejay

Gone Fishin'
Istr reading somewhere that in 1815 the German Princes invited Emperor Franz to resume the Imperial Crown which he had abandoned in 1806. But as this would have conferred little actual power, Franz wasn't particularly interested.

If has been a possibility that Francis II and I had accept the Imperial German Crown an Austrian dominated Germany would have emerged, with Prussia being the second most dominant state in it. Good question whether or not if the whole of the Austrian Empire would be included into this German Empire or just the following regions of the Austrian Empire, Which are the following; Archduchy of Austria, Duchy of Salzburg, Duchy of Styria, Princely County of Tyrol with Voarlberg and possibly the Bohemian Crown.

I agree with you it would be a loose federation with the possibility of a customs and currency union.
 
Where did the requirement for specificity come into this, I did not see the seven rules of logic hanging on the forum discussion when I walked in.

I hereby shall always:
  • Translate facts accurately
  • To their exact specificity where and when required
  • Not distort them through interpretation
  • Not generalise when speaking or writing regarding the information
  • Not maliciously use facts in acts of propaganda
  • Cite an academic source when the information is used
  • Always base arguments with factual sources
If in violation of the above you are hereby criticized.

I am guilty of generalising a piece of information because I have studied it too much and thought the people in the same discussion knew the same knowledge.
Wow, you took it personally. o_O

There is a big gap between "French Rhineland" and "Austro-French vassal Rhineland still inside the German Confederation", it's not generalising, it's providing wrong information.

Does it really say that?

All I can find is a vague statement that Nap III hoped to "negotiate for territory on the Rhine" which might only mean the Saar and Palatinate, and even that only sounds like an aspiration.
It sounds like Bismark's promises of land in Luxemburg and Belgium(not sure about Saar) as well, so empty promises.
 
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Does it really say that?

All I can find is a vague statement that Nap III hoped to "negotiate for territory on the Rhine" which might only mean the Saar and Palatinate, and even that only sounds like an aspiration.

The idea to re-annex the German Rhine post-1815 links back to Revoluntary France in 1792, the term for it now is "Greater France" (which also includes Belgium and Luxembourg). When Napoleon III was looking to annex the Rhine he is referring to 1792 borders.
 
Wow, you took it personally. o_O

There is a big gap between "French Rhineland" and "Austro-French vassal Rhineland still inside the German Confederation", it's not generalising, it's providing wrong information.


It sounds like Bismark's promises of land in Luxemburg and Belgium(not sure about Saar) as well, so empty promises.

LMFAO :'(:'(:'(:'(:'(:'(:'(:'(:'(:'(:'(:'(:'(:'(:'(:'(:'(:'(:'(:'(:'(:'(:'(:'(:'(:'(:'(:'(:'(:'(:'(:'(:'(:'(:'(:'(:'(:'(:'(

The idea of the post is to make a point.
 
The idea to re-annex the German Rhine post-1815 links back to Revoluntary France in 1792, the term for it now is "Greater France" (which also includes Belgium and Luxembourg). When Napoleon III was looking to annex the Rhine he is referring to 1792 borders.

In which case he would have needed to annex Belgium as well, which would have guaranteed war with Britain, and probably with other powers also. OK, I know he was a dimwit, but he'd need to be certifiably insane to try that.
 
In which case he would have needed to annex Belgium as well, which would have guaranteed war with Britain, and probably with other powers also. OK, I know he was a dimwit, but he'd need to be certifiably insane to try that.

True but you have to put it within the context of that time, Belgium was a very young nation and only 20 years previous there were talks of her being partitioned. French and Austrian power combined like all alliances previous can make and break anything during that time. Yea Britain would have come to Belgium's aid but France could break Belgium like a toothpick with Austrian backing France and Austria receiving her like for like in return. I.e. France allies with Austria to get 1792 borders and in return, Austria can dominate Germany and when the times comes that nationalism is driving the German Rhine to be apart of the German nation we will let it become apart of Germany (only after taking advantage of the Ruhr) but Belgium area stays apart of France. You would not have a united German nation but eventually when the political time is right for politicians to pull their weight and make it happen. I think you would get a Habsburg dominated German Empire with redrawn edits according to ethnicity.

The hotspot issues with will be Alsace-Lorraine, Schleswig-Holstein, East Prussia, West Prussia and Lombardy–Venetia. If there is overwhelming consensus Alsace-Lorraine and Schleswig-Holsteinthey should be within the empire, Austria will invade because of political pressure, media or public opinion will demand it. The political solution of transferring the German population would be desirable but that is enormously complicated, whilst East Prussia and West Prussia will be drawn into the "red lines". Lombardy–Venetia will be the Habsburg compromise and will have to let it go to the Kingdom of Italy. On the other hand, it never came across their minds to try and put a Habsburg on the Italian throne.

In relation to Austria itself, she would be able to determine the borders on the German Eastern and South Eastern borders herself as she be making the partition of herself, of one part of the Austrian Empire to be inside the German Empire and another country would be created for the remaining territory. These two countries will then be connected by a personal union.

Rudolf, Crown Prince of Austria suits this scenario
 
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Skallagrim

Banned
Istr reading somewhere that in 1815 the German Princes invited Emperor Franz to resume the Imperial Crown which he had abandoned in 1806. But as this would have conferred little actual power, Franz wasn't particularly interested.

I think the best you could get is a crowned confederation - or, in other words, a restoration of the Empire - not a German Empire.

Look at that: not only a suggestion to restore the Holy Roman Empire, but a clear recognition that the Holy Roman Empire is and always will be... the Empire.

vy8f7.jpg



It was kept by Austria and Prussia with a more manageable 39 states, minus Westphalia, as the German Confederation but included Austria and Prussia as co-Presidents. It was much more manageable than the previous 101 states prior to the disbanding of the HRE.

This, on the other hand... Know ye not the glory of the border-gore? You may think that reducing the number of convoluted non-contiguous statelets is a solid plan, but you will find that it is you who are mistaken.

26xgbi.jpg




...and just in cast you all doubt my credentials on this...

26xgiv.jpg



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(But seriously, a restoration of the HRE is really the easiest way to make a German Empire happen in 1815. Well, the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation, anyway. That's close enough. It can get foreign support on the basis that it's part of restoring everything those blasted revolutionaries had destroyed. The biggest obstacle would actually be getting the Habsburgs on board with it.)
 
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