WI: Force H sinks the graf spee?

I can't comment on wartime butterflies,
But cinema would be robbed of the following exchange.


A message from the commodore, sir.
The commodore asks,
can we reach the Falklands?
Reply.
"
Can reach Plymouth, if ordered."
- Yeoman.

- Sir?
Add...
"Request permission
to revise list of spares."

"Revise list of spares."
Hookie Bell.
Well, if anybody can make it, he will.
Signal.
"Proceed Falklands.

Godspeed."
Dave
 
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I can't comment on wartime butterflies,
But cinema would be robbed of the following exchange.


A message from the commodore, sir.
The commodore asks,
can we reach the Falklands?
Reply.
"
Can reach Plymouth, if ordered."
- Yeoman.

- Sir?
Add...
"Request permission
to revise list of spares."

"Revise list of spares."
Hookie Bell.
Well, if anybody can make it, he will.
Signal.
"Proceed Falklands.

Godspeed."
Dave

I love that film, could watch it an infinite number of times.
 
If the carrier planes disable it, as with the Bismarck, then a earlier appreciation of naval air power emerges. It it sinks from torpedo hits then double that.
 
What if instead of the cruisers sent to sink the graf spee aircraft from ARK ROYAL sink her. What would the possible knock on effects be?
Force H as we know it didn't exist in the final quarter of 1939.

According to Anthony Preston's An Illustrated History of the Navies of World War II there was a Force H in the final quarter of 1939, but it was based at Simonstown and consisted of the County class cruisers Shropshire and Sussex.

Ark Royal and Renown formed Force K which was based at Freetown. Therefore if Ark Royal were to sink Graff Spee it would probably be between Fretown and Pernambuco.
 
From the book British Aircraft Carriers - David Hobbs

"Operating between Cape Verde and Pernambuco, Ark Royal was well placed to intercept German blockade-runners attempting to return to Europe. Her presence was threat enough to have a major influence upon the captain of Graf Spee’s decision to scuttle his ship off Montevideo on 17 December 1939."
 
Would this make the Germans timid about using large warships as surface raiders, this precluding the later surface raids, including the Bismarck?
 
Losing the Graf Spee OTL did not change a lot. There were several capitol ship raids into the Atlantic in the next few years. The Ugly Sisters and others were out and about doing what they did. Did not really end until the Scharnhorst and Tirpitz were sunk.
 
At the time of the hunt for Graf Spee, the HMS Ark Royal actually was part of "Force-K", which was consisting of:
Renown, Ark Royal and destroyers Hardy, Hostile, Hereward and Hasty.

Force H was a name used in this period as well, but a different force than the one formed in 1940.

In actual order of battle:
Force F: HMS Berwick & HMS York at North Atlantic, Western Aproaches.
Force G: HMS Exeter, HMS Cumberland, HMS Ajax & HMNZS Achilles at the Falklands.
Force H: HMS Cumberland, HMS Shropshire & HMS Sussex at Cape Good Hope.
Force I: HMS Eagle, HMS Dorsetshire & HMS Cornwall, at Ceylon.
Force J: HMS Gloreous & HMS Malaya, North Atlantic.
Force K: HMS Ark Royal, HMS Renown, HMS Neptune, HMS Hardy, HMS Rero, HMS Hereward, HMS Hostile & submarine HMS Clyde, at Freetown
Force L: HMS Furious & HMS Repulse, at the North atlantic, with the Home Fleet.
Force X: (French) Foch & Dupleix, at Dakar.
Force Y: (British/French) HMS Hermes, Strasbourg & HMS Neptune (later transfered to Force K), West Indies.
 
At the time of the hunt for Graf Spee, the HMS Ark Royal actually was part of "Force-K", which was consisting of:
Renown, Ark Royal and destroyers Hardy, Hostile, Hereward and Hasty.

Force H was a name used in this period as well, but a different force than the one formed in 1940.

In actual order of battle:
Force F: HMS Berwick & HMS York at North Atlantic, Western Aproaches.
Force G: HMS Exeter, HMS Cumberland, HMS Ajax & HMNZS Achilles at the Falklands.
Force H: HMS Cumberland, HMS Shropshire & HMS Sussex at Cape Good Hope.
Force I: HMS Eagle, HMS Dorsetshire & HMS Cornwall, at Ceylon.
Force J: HMS Gloreous & HMS Malaya, North Atlantic.
Force K: HMS Ark Royal, HMS Renown, HMS Neptune, HMS Hardy, HMS Rero, HMS Hereward, HMS Hostile & submarine HMS Clyde, at Freetown
Force L: HMS Furious & HMS Repulse, at the North atlantic, with the Home Fleet.
Force X: (French) Foch & Dupleix, at Dakar.
Force Y: (British/French) HMS Hermes, Strasbourg & HMS Neptune (later transfered to Force K), West Indies.

What about the mediterranean fleet? You know, Warspite, Barham. I thought Force J, Malaya and Glorious, were operating there.
 
At the time of the hunt for Graf Spee, the HMS Ark Royal actually was part of "Force-K", which was consisting of:
Renown, Ark Royal and destroyers Hardy, Hostile, Hereward and Hasty.

Force H was a name used in this period as well, but a different force than the one formed in 1940.

In actual order of battle:
Force F: HMS Berwick & HMS York at North Atlantic, Western Aproaches.
Force G: HMS Exeter, HMS Cumberland, HMS Ajax & HMNZS Achilles at the Falklands.
Force H: HMS Cumberland, HMS Shropshire & HMS Sussex at Cape Good Hope.
Force I: HMS Eagle, HMS Dorsetshire & HMS Cornwall, at Ceylon.
Force J: HMS Gloreous & HMS Malaya, North Atlantic.
Force K: HMS Ark Royal, HMS Renown, HMS Neptune, HMS Hardy, HMS Rero, HMS Hereward, HMS Hostile & submarine HMS Clyde, at Freetown
Force L: HMS Furious & HMS Repulse, at the North atlantic, with the Home Fleet.
Force X: (French) Foch & Dupleix, at Dakar.
Force Y: (British/French) HMS Hermes, Strasbourg & HMS Neptune (later transfered to Force K), West Indies.

Two Cumberlands?
 
What about the mediterranean fleet? You know, Warspite, Barham. I thought Force J, Malaya and Glorious, were operating there.

The Mediteranean Fleet was a main command unit, dealing with the possibility of Italy entering the war though it actually did not do so until may 1940. HMS Gloreous was not assigned to this unit at the time, as she was transfered to the hunting group J, which technically was to operate in the North Atlantic, though Glorious was in the Indian Ocean most of the time being transfered from Alexandria, through the Suez Canal via South Africa to the Atlantic. Malaya was based at Gibraltar at the time and waited there for HMS Glorious to catch up (Not until december 1939).

Ar the time the of the hunt for Graf Spee, the Mediterranean Fleet only had one battleship stationed at Alexandira, HMS Warspite and a second en route to strengthen this fleet: HMS Ramillies. The only aircraft carrier HMS Glorious was reassigned to the mentioned Force J. (HMS Queen Elisabeth and HMS Valliant were in Portsmouth fitting out after their major refit, HMS Barham was at Gibraltar, with HMS Malaya).

For the good order: The homefleet at the time was HMS Nelson, HMS Rodney, HMS Revenge, HMS Royal Sovereign & HMS Hood. (appart from HMS repulse and HMS Furious, who were also assigned for the hunting group L, mainly not to hunt Graf Spee, but her sistership Deutschland, known to operate in this part of the Atlantic.)
 
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