WI:Flanders-Brabant Union

In 1384, the County of Flanders was inherited by the Dukes of Burgundy, who subsequently used it as a base to expand their territory in the Low Countries, ultimately creating the Burgundian Netherlands.

But, what if we have some kind of dynastic POD (I'm not exactly sure what it would be, as a I haven't poured over medieval family trees) that would result in Flanders getting inherited by the ruling house of Brabant?

-Would this union have chance of lasting? (In other words, might Brabant have a harder time keeping hold of Flanders then Burgundy did?)

-Given that our Brabant-Flanders union entirely encircles the County of Hainaut, and borders the County of Holland (which was in personal union with Hainaut at the time), how hard would it be for Brabant-Flanders to incorporate both? (Thus producing, essentially, the Burgundian Netherlands without Burgundy)

-How might a weaker Burgundy and an independent Netherlands affect the Hundred Years War?

-Assuming Brabant-Flanders manages to incorporate all or most of the other Low Countries, will it develop an identity separate from Germany and the HRE the way the OTL Netherlands and Belgium did?
 
A union between Flanders and Brabant will dominate the Netherlands. Some (or most) duchies and counties will fall to Brabant by marage or war. This would make Brabant a powerhouse in the HRE. I see two ways the Netherlands become independent
1) The other members of the HRE may become scared of the power of the Netherlands in the HRE and a wage war against them.
2) If protestantism still gains much ground in the Netherlands, they won´t be happy to be ruled be a (possibly) katholic Kaiser.

I like the idea, but will the Dutch develope a colonial empire?
 
Nice idea!
I do not know also about family lines and mariages of this age. But If hter is a son and a daugther of both Houses why not.
Let asume, there was a mariage and later a son who inherited all in one personal union.
Let asume this Count and duke is smart enough and cabable to navigate his realm throughout the hunderd years war and during this time settle some thing with neighbours. A kind of Charles the Bold attitude.
First collission could be the duke of Gelre and Cleve. Other options are the Prince Bisshops of Liege, Utrecht and Munster. Holland Henegouwen is also a nice target. But war was an uncertan factor, mariage was much better to enlarge your realm.
The Duke of Brabant would certainly stay in the HRE and bid for the Emperros crown every occansion. Since in his realmthe largest concentration of cities and kapital, next to North Itally, giving him very deep pockkets, he could have a large chance of become elector and even emperor
Can not tell what would happen when erasmus, Cornherd and Luther enter the stage with there questions of the behavior of the church of Rome.
 
The great thing with nobility inheriting lands is that by changing just a few dates of death and a few marriages you can get everyone to inherit just about anything:p So, you could make that happen anywhere in the 13-14th century.

Now, one easy way, handily co-dated with the OTL Burgundian Netherlands, would be to have Lodewijk van Male marry Margareta van Brabant as OTL. Only, this time we skip the Brabantine succession war (and the Joyous Entry*) by having one of Jan III of Brabants sons survive. (say, Hendrik, the second one who died after Margareta's marriage.)

Then we get him to marry off Hendrik V's son, let's call him Godfried, to Margareta van Male. (first cousin, not the only time nobility did that, no problem here)

And we get:

1347: Margareta van Brabant marries Lodewijk van Male, Count of Flanders
1350: Hendrik V marries, eh, a pretty noblewoman(no time to look for a match with interesting inheritances)
1351 Hendrik V has a son, Godfried van Brabant
1355: Jan III of Brabant dies, Hendrik becomes Hendrik V, Duke of Brabant
1369: Godfried marries his first cousin Margareta van Male (might mean a not quite happy Lodewijk)
1374: Godfried has a son, Jan (yes, many, many Jans & Hendriks amongst the Reiniers:D)
1376: Hendrik V is dead! Long live Godfried I, Duke of Brabant!
1384: Lodewijk van Male dies, his daughter Margareta inherits her OTL titles.
1402: Godfried I is dead, Long live Jan IV, Duke of Brabant, Count of Flanders, of Rethel, of Burgundy**, and of Artesia

From there we have a strong and powerful House of Brabant, which has plenty of opportunities to enlarge their possessions in the Low Countries the same way the Valois did, marrying, buying, and conquering.

The 16th century and beyond could go many different ways from here.

1)Brabantine Netherlands, becoming de jure independent whenever the HRE collapses and staying so, can become a Great colonial power, though needs to keep an eye on France and "interesting developments" in the HRE (IMO cultural identity is different enough that the population would not want unification with Germany)

2) 1422: Jan IV's son Jan, marries Elisabeth of Bohemen
1438: Jan I, Holy Roman Emperor anyone:D:cool:

Possibly leading to: Heilige Roomse Rijk der Duitse Natie (short form Duitsland):
- capital: Brussels
- Head of State: Keizer Hendrik XVII van Brabant
- population: 140 million (that's with losing Northern Italy btw)
- Language: Duits***
- Largest port: Antwerp;) (also largest in the world)

* not completely new, but skippng it would make it somewhat easier to have a powerful Duke.
** County of Burgundy, i.e. the Franche-Comté, part of the HRE
*** = German in Dutch, see my long post in this thread. This time based on the Low-German dialect of the Low Countries, sounding as 19th century Flemish with a German Flavour to it, probably mutually intelligible with OTL Dutch and more or less with OTL German.
 
looks very nice:)
But this is: Possibly leading to: Heilige Roomse Rijk der Duitse Natie (short form Duitsland):
- capital: Brussels
- Head of State: Keizer Hendrik XVII van Brabant
- population: 140 million (that's with losing Northern Italy btw)
- Language: Duits***
- Largest port: Antwerp(also largest in the world)

some were 16th century?

Antwerp was already the port were exotic products were traded, so not strang if some trade companies emerge here to get the spice by them selves instead of buying it from Spanish and Portuguese traders.
Don not forget other trade and industry, this is the most populated and industrialised, large textile industy, part of the globe and the place were modern capitalism was evolved. Modern banking, stock exchange, insurance all these things started in Brabant and Flandres.
 
Oops, the possibly leading to needs a "in the 21st century"
That's why it's Jan number 17 and 140M pop.

I claim the copyright for both TL options BTW:D (well, perhaps only with that exact POD)
I thought of those a few years ago already. I only need to find the courage and time some day in the (far) future to start writing them instead of keaping them all in my head. (and my idea for a multi-continent spanning Dutch Empire after a different 80 years war...)
 
A Flanders-Brabant union will probably go the same way as other northern German principalities. It will get end up in the religious wars, like the 30 year war, and various wars for autonomy against the emperor, like the 30 year war. It also will get involved in wars in which France tries to conquer it and wars against its neighbours who try to conquer it, like Cleve-Julich-Berg, Gueldres and Holland-Hainaut. It will probably relatively rich, but it will suffer heavily through those wars. i suspect it will either end up German or French in the end.
 
A Flanders-Brabant union will probably go the same way as other northern German principalities. It will get end up in the religious wars, like the 30 year war, and various wars for autonomy against the emperor, like the 30 year war. It also will get involved in wars in which France tries to conquer it and wars against its neighbours who try to conquer it, like Cleve-Julich-Berg, Gueldres and Holland-Hainaut. It will probably relatively rich, but it will suffer heavily through those wars. i suspect it will either end up German or French in the end.
Or it ends up as one of the main players in the Intra-German power struggle, possibly even replacing Brandenburg/Prussia or Habsburg Austria.

It would be richer and more populous than most other German principalities, especially once it has acquired most of the Low Countries. (for which a Flemish-Brabantine union most definitely is a good starting base)

That being said, having independent Netherlands with this scenario is a bit difficult indeed, but certainly possible. As a part of Germany however, it does have a decent chance at becoming a, maybe even the, dominant part of it.
If in 1384 someone would have told that the Habsburgs would deliver almost every emperor in the 15-18 centuries they would have laughed at you. If in 1610 you claim that Brandenburg will become the most powerful German state and eventually unite Germany, they will declare you insane.

The Low Countries ending up as part of France is, IMO, quite unlikely.

And never forget: Even Rome started as a small town in the shadow of the Etruscans! A more-than-normal share of luck (or fortune, or blessing of the Gods) was often needed in OTL to make great empires. Just look at the Habsburgs inheriting both the Burgundian Lands and Spain. Or indeed Brandenburg/Prussia becoming powerful instead of staying lower mid-size.
 
The Low Countries ending up as part of France is, IMO, quite unlikely.
Unlikely? The only reason OTL why the Netherlands south of the Rhine didn't became French is because in the 16th-18th century the rest of Europe fought France to avoid it. And don't frget Flanders already is Frenche and Brabant well into the French sphere of influence. One of the first things to do for Flanders-Brabant is didconnect themselves from France, which will be a lot harder without the Burgundians or Habsburgs.

Anyway what happens to Flanders-Brabant is very closely connected to what happens to the countries around them. It is not in a good position, with a greedy France south of them and greedy German states around them. And while Flanders-Brabant might be rich, Holland, Frisia, Utrecht (including Overijssel) have also the potential to be rich. Flanders-Brabant will have a hard time, if they want to dominate the region, let alone all of Germany. I must admit it is possible. Flanders-Brabant will change a lot. You get rid of both the Burgundians aswell as the Habsburgers, both were very influential for both the development of the region as well as the rest of Europe, so the history of all of Germany and France will change so much, it will be unrecognizable. There will be lots of butterflies. Just think of a world without Charles V. Flanders-Brabant might end up on top, but I don't think they have the best papers for it.
 
Pompeus.
Let us asume Flandres_Brabant is a personal union. Also with subsequent reasonable ferile generations producing men who are smart and eager enough to claim a leading role in the international politics of that time. Suppose after 3 or 4 generations of smart wedding planning, skrude politics and a bit of true mideaval battlefield violence( Like the Burgundians dukes) they get so much influence and power that they control all the Low Countries. Also Gelre, Cleve, Mark, Berg, Limbourg, Zeeland, Holland ,the Frisians.
They could have come to thought to ask for a crown from the HR Emperor or give it to them selves when one of the Dukes of Brabant wins ( read buy) the HR Emperial crown.
We still in the 14th, 15th, and 16th century. The french Kings only had real power in that eara around Paris. If they had more power and tried advantures out side Franch it turned bad. Only the much later 17th century Louis XIV was succes ful in enlarging Franche, but by then it was an centralised state.
 
Pompeus.
Let us asume Flandres_Brabant is a personal union. Also with subsequent reasonable ferile generations producing men who are smart and eager enough to claim a leading role in the international politics of that time. Suppose after 3 or 4 generations of smart wedding planning, skrude politics and a bit of true mideaval battlefield violence( Like the Burgundians dukes) they get so much influence and power that they control all the Low Countries. Also Gelre, Cleve, Mark, Berg, Limbourg, Zeeland, Holland ,the Frisians.
They could have come to thought to ask for a crown from the HR Emperor or give it to them selves when one of the Dukes of Brabant wins ( read buy) the HR Emperial crown.
We still in the 14th, 15th, and 16th century. The french Kings only had real power in that eara around Paris. If they had more power and tried advantures out side Franch it turned bad. Only the much later 17th century Louis XIV was succes ful in enlarging Franche, but by then it was an centralised state.

Possible, but far from certain.
 
Unlikely? The only reason OTL why the Netherlands south of the Rhine didn't became French is because in the 16th-18th century the rest of Europe fought France to avoid it. And don't frget Flanders already is Frenche and Brabant well into the French sphere of influence. One of the first things to do for Flanders-Brabant is didconnect themselves from France, which will be a lot harder without the Burgundians or Habsburgs.

Anyway what happens to Flanders-Brabant is very closely connected to what happens to the countries around them. It is not in a good position, with a greedy France south of them and greedy German states around them. And while Flanders-Brabant might be rich, Holland, Frisia, Utrecht (including Overijssel) have also the potential to be rich. Flanders-Brabant will have a hard time, if they want to dominate the region, let alone all of Germany. I must admit it is possible. Flanders-Brabant will change a lot. You get rid of both the Burgundians aswell as the Habsburgers, both were very influential for both the development of the region as well as the rest of Europe, so the history of all of Germany and France will change so much, it will be unrecognizable. There will be lots of butterflies. Just think of a world without Charles V. Flanders-Brabant might end up on top, but I don't think they have the best papers for it.
France probably won't become a problem before the late 16th or 17th century. By then there should be rich and powerful Brabantine Netherlands with some allies/possible co-belligerents who would prefer to keep France from becoming too powerful.
As far as the creation of the Brabantine Netherlands themselves go, a Flanders-Brabant union is one of the best starting positions for it IMO, certainly no worse than Burgundy.
And yes, skipping the Burgundian Netherlands and possibly the Hapsburgs would mean an unrecognisable Europe, and, through colonisation, the rest of the world.

Last but not least, as already mentioned, 16th century Brandenburg didn't have the best papers for German domination either I'd say. Far from it even. Nations and peoples always need some well-timed luck to survive the growing stage of becoming a large and powerful empire. Prussia surviving the Seven Years War anyone?

I never said the Brabantine Netherlands, or Brabantine HRE, would have an easy time. It would be require much blood, sweat and tears to come out of the 15-19th centuries as a powerful nation/empire.

Not to forget courage, balls of steel and the good graces of Fortuna.
 
Flanderen and Brabant are united by mariage and later in personel union by a son.
Next step for this ambitious family;
A marriage with Holland-Henegouwen or Gelre-Kleve-Gullik-Mark-Berg. I thought all these countie and ducalities were hold all by one family as well around the 14 th century.
And when this succseeds, Picardie or Hainaut?
 
Flanderen and Brabant are united by mariage and later in personel union by a son.
Next step for this ambitious family;
A marriage with Holland-Henegouwen or Gelre-Kleve-Gullik-Mark-Berg. I thought all these countie and ducalities were hold all by one family as well around the 14 th century.
And when this succseeds, Picardie or Hainaut?
Holland-Zeeland-Hainaut + Bavaria-Straubing actually.
Not sure if the Other 3 Bavaria's would let Straubing inherit through the female-line instead of just taking it over themselves (sort of as otl)

Jülich only got Berg in 1423, Cleves & Mark in 1521

But yes, getting Holland-Zeeland-Hainaut by marriage, preferably without other claimants who could start a succession war or run away with parts of it, Brabant-Flanders* would be set for domination of the Low Countries(yes pompejus, only as far as internal competition goes;)), as Gelderland will be outclassed against Brabant-Flanders-Holland-Zeeland-Hainaut (gaah, better start calling it the Brabantine Netherlands from this point, much shorter)

* if united under Brabant that would be the logical order, even if Flanders-Brabant is slightly easier on the tongue. Though IMO Brabant-Vlaanderen is actually easier than Vlaanderen-Brabant.
 
Oeps made some mistakes in my previous post:rolleyes:
Flandren-Brabant-Holland-Hainaut whith out Staubing united.
That is already quit a large dominion. What is next? the Ducy of Gelre?
The kings of France are still occupied with the English and thier own Barrons.
There is a patch work of counties and ducalities around the Brabant-Flandres ready to intermariage or blunt conquest.
 
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