WI: Falcon Heavy to Mars

marathag

Banned
Well to be fair TV's had some influence yes :) "Enhance American Gear for Lunar Exploration/Exploitation" or EAGLE comes to mind :)
View attachment 800487
(Alternate Lunar Lander program for CEV proposal. See: "CIRA/AAS EAGLE" concept here: http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/excursion.php)

This was part of the concept for "Project Moonlight" and included a common pressurized volume and "Advanced Reusable Italian Expandable System" or ARIES :)

Randy
Have to say, I like it.
 
Have to say, I like it.

What's not to like? Slap an SEV cockpit on that sucker and we're modern (and have better visibility :) ) and if you've looked at the Atomic Rockets thread it had some nifty variants as well. Too bad an Italian concept had no chance in an American competition :)

Randy
 
Found on YouTube:Falcon Base Artemis Mission architecture vide. (Slight "uh-oh" in the end, funny non-use of the Falcon Heavy, and Dragon could use some flotation bags but really quality video)


Randy
 
Still no other comments :(

Well I'll say one other thing that a change in the upper stage propellants would be a good idea. Eventually going methalox would help with reusability payload hit and if tweaked enough could let you add upper stage reusability though I'd say there's always an argument for 'mixing' expendable and reusable depending on the mission.

Randy
 
Necessary read on Red dragon
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26270977

Falcon heavy’s 63t to LEO payload is highly theoretical, it probably needs significant structural changes for that

I’d say however
Make spaceX more successful in their early F1 days, have them transition to F9 a bit earlier, maybe with Falcon 5 as an intermediary that can do basic Commercial ressuply qualifications, then have them develop either Falcon Heavy or some big Falcon (Falcon X) some years ahead of schedule, and , the most important and hardest part, have NASA have a clearer Post constellation and Post shuttle Manned program earlier (probably requires bolden to get out or never get in), no ARM or Deep space habitat. Have a clear moon (or mars but that’s extremely unlikely) plan by 2015 or so. Ideally (for spacex) you’d cancel Orion and a Shuttle derived launcher for it in favour of a BLEO Spacecraft+Launcher competition but that may be way too hard.

The goal there is to have SpaceX get contractually locked in the Falcon family before its leadership can even design that Starship/ITS/MCT

The alternative is to just screw SpaceX in the early 2010s enough, alongside with at least screwing Musk’s other venture enough that they never get the funding for a Starship project by the time an Artemis equivalent happens. However there are risks the Falcon heavy never happens if SpaceX has a much harder time getting DoD contracts.

I think the Challenge is very much possible, you just need to avoid SpaceX’s leadership and R&D department having the funding, time and lack of clear objective to slowly come up with the Starship architecture through the 2010s.
 
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Thanks, I'll check it out.

Falcon heavy’s 63t to LEO payload is highly theoretical, it probably needs significant structural changes for that

Going off the wikipedia data since the only other way is to 'request' the figures from SpaceX. Might be a misprint as most other sites that I can find an actual figure attached to say 53t to LEO, but then again most of those same sites list the payload to LEO as "141,000lbs" which comes out to almost 64 metric tons.

Granted I don't think the FH could actually carry that much mass to LEO but that's what they claim. (SpaceX says "twice as much payload as the Delta IV Heavy")

Randy
 
I’d say however
Make SpaceX more successful in their early F1 days, have them transition to F9 a bit earlier, maybe with Falcon 5 as an intermediary that can do basic Commercial resuply qualifications, then have them develop either Falcon Heavy or some big Falcon (Falcon X) some years ahead of schedule,

Interesting stuff.
In context Falcon 5 was quickly set aside because a "customer" (likely the DoD) directed SpaceX that the Falcon 9 was really the minimum needed payload mass for a commercial launcher and it was found that economically going straight to the Falcon 9 was a much better option. Falcon Heavy followed from there, (and I too recall the concept of the Falcon X which was the initial Mars vehicle, more on that below) again due to supposed "customer" input.

... and , the most important and hardest part, have NASA have a clearer Post constellation and Post shuttle Manned program earlier (probably requires Bolden to get out or never get in), no ARM or Deep space habitat. Have a clear moon (or mars but that’s extremely unlikely) plan by 2015 or so. Ideally (for SpaceX) you’d cancel Orion and a Shuttle derived launcher for it in favour of a BLEO Spacecraft+Launcher competition but that may be way too hard.

As you say the 'hardest' yet most important part :) Really we have to have a change of heart in Congress as they were still opposed to any BLEO plans at the time. While they'd "authorized" Constellation they had really only been interested in a SDV follow on to the Shuttle not really going beyond LEO. Griffin was trying to get an official "Mars Direct" plan (more on that below as well) but Congress wasn't going to support it as they only wanted Orion and an SDV for ISS support. (Way over capacity I know but it's Congress after all)

Congress had rejected NASA having a real "Plan" twice before (VSE and SEI) and they are still not really interested in going to the Moon, (hence the issues with the HLS budget and lack of support for lander development) but have felt forced to 'do-something' but are still opposed to NASA BLEO operations. You'd need something to force their hand.
We should also keep in mind that Congress was opposed to Commercial Cargo/Crew for the most part, and many were specifically opposed to SpaceX. (More than a little bit due to Aerospace Lobbying)

The goal there is to have SpaceX get contractually locked in the Falcon family before its leadership can even design that Starship/ITS/MCT

While Musk was vague on details from the start he was highly interested in the Mars Direct concept which is the basis for ITS/MCT/Starship. Fixation with the idea of needing to land 150 (was originally 100) metric tons on the surface of Mars in a single "flight" has been the driver of the large launch vehicle and its design. Avoiding orbital infrastructure, (which is why Musk tried so hard to avoid any planning for an orbital propellant depot, with it even now being referred to as "Orbital Tanker Starship" rather that a depot which is what it actually is) or assembly and trying to "directly" (as much as possible) fly the mission from Earth to Mars and back in one vehicle and on one mission is directly from the "Mars Direct" background arguments.
Given SpaceX and the Falcon itself is all based on Musk's obsession with Mars it's going to be hard to deflect that into a more sensible and manageable program.

And to be honest orbital assembly would be a hard sell given the lack of experience or development in it in general. As I noted you'd have to have new space suits capable of being used for extended EVA's and a whole raft of development on orbital assembly itself. You're still looking at a "Starship sized" effort in terms of money and resources but by using the existing Falcon family you avoid having to develop a new high power new engine and airframe.

An idea is to maybe have some other firms/concepts gain some more traction like partnering earlier with Bigelow Aerospace and planning to use its TransHab technology. Maybe Musk gloms onto something other than Mars Direct ("Mars for Less" for example) as a basic plan to get to Mars.

The alternative is to just screw SpaceX in the early 2010s enough, alongside with at least screwing Musk’s other venture enough that they never get the funding for a Starship project by the time an Artemis equivalent happens. However there are risks the Falcon heavy never happens if SpaceX has a much harder time getting DoD contracts.

Well if California takes a hard right turn in the late 90s and early 'nauts where a Republican government then zeros out all the planned EV tax breaks and subsidies then Tesla's success is a lot less likely. But as you say that endangers SpaceX itself and Falcon development, though SpaceX was always predicated on getting DoD and NASA contracts and those parties actually welcomed the 'competition' to ULA. (Which arguably win/lose/draw for SpaceX was what NASA/DoD was hoping to do in shaking up ULA's lock on the launch market. Similar to the reasons for support Vulcan and New Glenn currently)

I think the Challenge is very much possible, you just need to avoid SpaceX’s leadership and R&D department having the funding, time and lack of clear objective to slowly come up with the Starship architecture through the 2010s.

I agree but the "problem" in the end is most likely going to be Musk himself and the problem with 'removing' him is the way he's set up the companies they pretty literally can't function without him. (That's by design btw, Musk has stated that) Getting him to accept a different architecture would be an immense help.

Thanks

Randy
 
I realized I didn't actually "expand" on the points I said I was so let me do so here:

In general Musk's "aim" for SpaceX was initially a LOT more 'conventional' than has been stated. Falcon 1 was always about learning to build rockets and the failures there pretty much forced SpaceX to follow most of the "standard" aerospace company practices instead of being "super innovative" as was suggested. Where the 'innovation' really came into play was the internal economics and organization. The Falcon is a very straight-forward and conventional rocket that has been "iterated" into a reusable vehicle but not really as ground-breaking as it's touted to be. SpaceX took a chance on development but it was nothing another rocket company couldn't do, (as we've seen) it's just that other companies didn't see a reason to take that chance. Kudos to SpaceX.

But the idea to leap from the Falcon 1 to the Falcon 9 and the fact that it succeeded AND lead to a partially reusable rocket has lead many inside and outside of SpaceX to make the assumption that leaping ahead to an even bigger vehicle that is "planned" to be fully reusable should have been just as 'easy' to accomplish. It's not, but even aside from that there's an equal assumption that there are customers out there just 'waiting' for such a vehicle just as customers showed up for the Falcon 9 and Falcon Heavy. There actually aren't but really that would be beside the point since there is assumed to be enough internal (Starlink) demand that would drive the economics of the new launcher to make its development viable. Now with the NASA HSL contract that seems to be a fulfilled prophecy but not really the point. (Nor is it true but I'm not going to get into that)

The "point" was always getting Elon Musk to Mars in the manner and style he is accustomed too. And that's where "Mars Direct" comes in.

Musk's obsession with Mars has always had a very simplistic "space cadet" basis which does not really fit reality and the simple but (pardon the pun) direct nature of "Mars Direct" appeals to that outlook. He believes that there is much more public support for space flight than there really is at this point in time. Hence the early belief that a "simple greenhouse" on Mars would drive enough public demand to force a political shift in space policy. That's not the case at all.

There are a lot of people interested in Mars, but there are a lot of people interested in the Moon, or orbital space colonies or orbital Solar Power and the list goes on BUT all them combined don't make a huge segment of overall society. Enough to get sound-bytes, and vague statements from politicians (we no longer see "March Storms" of space advocates going to Washington for a good reason) but not enough to get budgets and actual support. Certainly not enough to push a general public display of support which is what is required to get actual political support.

There's a lot of background and preparation work that would need to be done to get a general public buy in and "just" putting boots on Mars won't do that, as we've seen with the Moon. But there is a general (and false) idea that "just like Apollo" all we need is:
A) A committed politician (aka President) to propose the bold action and Congress and the people will jump on it.
(VSE, SEI and even Constellation show otherwise)

B) A public spectacle, (like a automated greenhouse on Mars, a private trip around the Moon or around Mars, etc) in Space will blow open the doors of public support.
(Again such plans have always failed due to lack of that very interest in the first place)

C) A combination of the above or a 'rogue' maverick with money than sense coming forward to break the mold and show the way, which will reignite popular interest and open the flood gates of support.
(Err uhm, well that fails due to the interest having to be there FIRST to make it work)

The reality is space is both hard and expensive and most people don't really have an interest beyond direct (and highly visible) benefits they already get. That's not how 'frontiers' work, there are requirements and set ups that need to be done first to actually "open" up to the general public and thereby grow the "interest/support" and even then the majority of people will not actually participate in any direct way. (Which in truth is fine with most advocates since they simply want the majority to support THEM going not take any of those 'stick-in-the-muds' along for the ride :) )

There's a very real conflation of the idea of "exploration" being synonymous with "exploitation/colonization" when they are two very different process' and the latter requiring the former to be done before the latter is even viable. But you still have people that 'assume' that sending people to Mars to explore will equate to sending them to exploit/colonize Mars. Or the Moon or even open space. Really you have to build up in both capacity and capability from exploration, outposts, exploitation and then colonization for things to really work but the idea of it being simply to 'get' there and all else will follow is so highly seductive it's been accepted as a "fact" rather than a hope.

We've spent to date a bit more than 80 hours "exploring" the Moon and I doubt anybody would characterize that as sufficient to consider exploitation or colonization on grand scale. Well actually we know there ARE those that would, just as there are those that think one expedition to Mars is sufficient to allow the next flight to be one of colonization.
That's not the reality, but by pandering to that simplistic viewpoint it makes is SOUND like real progress is possible in a short human span of time. And more often than not that bit of false hope ends up hurting the overall effort in the long run.

Really to get where we want to be from where we are you always plan on and accept it will take time and effort and make plans accordingly. You lay the groundwork and set the stage and then you move forward.

Now having said all that I will point out that I my opinion (for what it's worth :) ) as I pointed out above that the similar time, effort and money spent on Starship could have been spent on making use of the Falcon family and setting the sights on the Moon and likely would have forced a "response" (good or bad would greatly depend on how it was 'sold' but you have to give Musk credit for often being able to 'sell' things well when he sets his mind to it :) ) out of the government more effectively than what we've seen.
The "problem" is convincing Musk that the path to Mars (for all the obvious and unavoidable political and public reasons) DOES really go through the Moon.

Randy
 
In context Falcon 5 was quickly set aside because a "customer" (likely the DoD) directed SpaceX that the Falcon 9 was really the minimum needed payload mass for a commercial launcher and it was found that economically going straight to the Falcon 9 was a much better option.
Yeah now that I look at the timeline (SpaceX also getting funding for F9 circa 2006), it’s unlikely any better off SX would go for the F5 stopgap, maybe a spacex with much less NASA And DOD support and funding in the 2000s would be forced to scrap the barrel and do it, but not in this case.



As you say the 'hardest' yet most important part
Definitely
I think going back to 2004, having O’Keefe not (temporarily) cancel the Hubble servicing missions and not resign as a result, so that he can stay as administrator through the early VSE period helps. His and Adm. Steidle’s VSE would have established as NASA policy early on that an EELV or equivalent non-NASA launcher are needed in BLEO programs. Then ideally without Griffin We get a single SDLV, one that needs another non-NASA launcher to do anything. It could be an Ares I style big stick or ideally some LEO-only rocket like direct 120/130, but it has to survive the financial crisis and Obama election, which I think also having an european module for CEV/Orion from the start (as was first proposed in 2004/2005) Would also help achieve, along with just accelerating Orion since there would be less redesigns.

It’d probably be a slow Constellation program that doesn’t achieve much in the late 2000s and would get close to cancellation and heavily reworked around 2010. At which point this better off SpaceX which actually has an operational Falcon 9 and Dragon which has been qualified and demonstrated its COTS capabilities can come in and offer Falcon Heavy (F9 V1.0/V1.1 version, not the one we got) as the complementary rocket to the SDLV for any BLEO program, of course NASA budget was severely restricted at the time so this process would probably be drawn out but time only favours SpaceX.

(Of course there is a risk any BLEO program gets deferred to some distant and costly improvement of that SDLV, but hopefully the architecture of constellation prevents this ittl)

If by 2015 we have both this SDLV and Falcon Heavy on the pad, Orion not too far in the future, a selection process for the various constellation archicture components now that Shuttle and SDLV have passed their peak expenditure, then we can imagine an American return to the moon before 2025 that involves Falcon Heavy. A starship or MCT just wouldn’t fit in this timeline.

I

I think this could get us FH to the Moon, which is a prerequisite to FH to Mars, but of course it’s not enough, getting FH to Mars indeed requires changing Musk considering the sheer timespan involved.


Getting him to accept a different architecture would be an immense help.
While I agree he always prefered a simple and heavy lift architecture, I do believe that the sequence of frustration at the poor NASA policies of constellation and Pre-Artemis era the institutional challenges SpaceX faced in getting contracts and recognition, the technical failures SpaceX had, then followed by many years of success and inability of the competition to adapt has made SpaceX and Musk as ambitious as they are now.

I think that had SpaceX encountered less failure, opposition in the 2000s and quickly Became a central piece of a NASA BLEO program, Musk and SpaceX’s leadership would be quite more conservative.

Their reuse program would also not be more advanced (if anything it may be slowed down), so by the time it became operation (IRL 2018), SpaceX would be quite further along, already deep in the program to return to the moon. The same could be said of Starlink (if it even happens), which would only become profitable after the American return to the moon, all of this would make the conception of the post-Falcon architecture comparatively slower and more conservative.

Finally for external events, well you can’t really make the Chinese go to the moon much quicker without looking at a 1980s POD. I’d be tempted to say that a 2014 full scale Russian invasion of Ukraine would be beneficial to this better off SpaceX but I’m not sure I’m taking into account enough parameters
 
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I think going back to 2004, having O’Keefe not (temporarily) cancel the Hubble servicing missions and not resign as a result, so that he can stay as administrator through the early VSE period helps. His and Adm. Steidle’s VSE would have established as NASA policy early on that an EELV or equivalent non-NASA launcher are needed in BLEO programs. Then ideally without Griffin We get a single SDLV, one that needs another non-NASA launcher to do anything. It could be an Ares I style big stick or ideally some LEO-only rocket like direct 120/130, but it has to survive the financial crisis and Obama election, which I think also having an european module for CEV/Orion from the start (as was first proposed in 2004/2005) Would also help achieve, along with just accelerating Orion since there would be less redesigns.

Ya, Griffin was a big "Mars Direct" fan, (which seems odd since he was earlier an advocate for medium lift at a high flight rate to lower costs) so he would push for that architecture. The problem here is again Congress which not only didn't support VSE in any form they also were looking towards mandating an SDLV in some form to replace the Shuttle. To be fair, O'Keefe was pretty much following "orders" (aka don't embarrass me again from the President) to reduce the chances of a Shuttle loss and the "Columbia" review board and most of NASA management agreed. I don't know that that soon after such a loss how he can't make that decision.

On the other hand Griffin was the one who started the "COTS" station resupply program (and lest we forget Congress was extremely hostile to COTS from the start) which I have doubts would have been done under O'Keefe. (At least to the degree that SpaceX would have been competed, Griffin included SpaceX despite then never having launch a rocket at that point) And without COTS (or the ability to compete in some sort of "commercial" program) SpaceX doesn't survive. (Griffin then awarded them a contract which raised al lot of eyebrows. Griffin was a SpaceX fan as well)
And a LEO only SDLV isn't in the cards from Griffin, (Direct never stood a chance because it COULD be redirected to LEO only so it got no support or consideration from Griffin) again he wanted the Ares V for Mars Direct so it was always going to be a single launch "Mars" vehicle.
He was pretty much forced to come up with Ares 1 to meet a Congressional mandate for supporting the ISS. (Recall he convinced Bush to consider ditching US participation once the ISS was 'completed') Congress was adamant that the US would continue to support the ISS, (to the point of declaring it a "National Laboratory") whereas Griffin saw "Earth orbit" as trap and the Moon as a side show.
(Significantly that attitude was what lead to the COTS program being started as to get NASA out of the orbital operations and resupply business so they could 'concentrate' on BLEO operations, specifically going to Mars by 2037. I'll also point out it's likely that Griffin was the one to convince Musk on the idea of Mars Direct when they met at Mars Society conference in 2001)

Without Griffin SpaceX does not survive and even Musk says this. Kind of a "Catch 22" here.
Now mind you a 'suspicion' here is that once Ares V was canceled Musk may have taken it upon himself to 'carry on' the Mars Direct mission so it's possible he would have focused more on orbital operations if Constellation had carried on, but I have not really examined the time line. My take is if Constellation/Ares V/SDLV is "LEO only" then Musk still goes in for the ITS concept to support a "Mars Direct" type architecture.

It’d probably be a slow Constellation program that doesn’t achieve much in the late 2000s and would get close to cancellation and heavily reworked around 2010. At which point this better off SpaceX which actually has an operational Falcon 9 and Dragon which has been qualified and demonstrated its COTS capabilities can come in and offer Falcon Heavy (F9 V1.0/V1.1 version, not the one we got) as the complementary rocket to the SDLV for any BLEO program, of course NASA budget was severely restricted at the time so this process would probably be drawn out but time only favours SpaceX.

As long as "Constellation" is keeping the doors open at the right contractors Congress will support is just like they did with SLS.
The more I think about it the more I'm going to say that if NASA had been kept slowly moving towards Mars that SpaceX would likely have stuck to LEO and Cis-Lunar space. We'd still get the Falcon Heavy we got or very close too since the F9 version wasn't going to work unless the changes got made anyway. (Rocket science is not easy as Musk keeps finding out :) ) We could have SpaceX chosen to launch a lot of the "precursor" and exploration probes for the planned NASA Mars mission.

Now if the "rework" of Constellation turn it into something like SLS (LEO or Cis-Lunar only without upgrades, upgrades Congress is not likely to fund) SpaceX could have such missions expanded but I'm still skeptical that ITS won't still come out as an "alternative" to the more limited Constellation. (Which is now a 'competitor" of sorts to SpaceX)

(Of course there is a risk any BLEO program gets deferred to some distant and costly improvement of that SDLV, but hopefully the architecture of constellation prevents this ittl)

Not sure I'm following here. I thought Constellation was a LEO only vehicle supported and augmented by FH. Are was assuming that NASA got redirected to the Moon somewhat like OTL?

If by 2015 we have both this SDLV and Falcon Heavy on the pad, Orion not too far in the future, a selection process for the various constellation architecture components now that Shuttle and SDLV have passed their peak expenditure, then we can imagine an American return to the moon before 2025 that involves Falcon Heavy. A starship or MCT just wouldn’t fit in this timeline.

I think I followed that so NASA has been directed back to the Moon instead of Mars, but again Mars is the main "point" for Musk so why wouldn't he still propose the MCT/Starship? I don't see that he wouldn't just propose a "Lunar" version the same as Lunar Starship for the same reasons.

I think this could get us FH to the Moon, which is a prerequisite to FH to Mars, but of course it’s not enough, getting FH to Mars indeed requires changing Musk considering the sheer timespan involved.

As long as NASA is paying SpaceX and planning their inclusion for lunar flights but I don't see this changing Musk's mind. I'd like to think that SpaceX could survive is something happened to Musk and maybe it could which might open up a possible change. I just don't like the solution of having to 'remove' the main motivator :)
(No matter how much I dislike the person personally :) )

While I agree he always preferred a simple and heavy lift architecture, I do believe that the sequence of frustration at the poor NASA policies of constellation and Pre-Artemis era the institutional challenges SpaceX faced in getting contracts and recognition, the technical failures SpaceX had, then followed by many years of success and inability of the competition to adapt has made SpaceX and Musk as ambitious as they are now.

I think that had SpaceX encountered less failure, opposition in the 2000s and quickly Became a central piece of a NASA BLEO program, Musk and SpaceX’s leadership would be quite more conservative.

Not sure this follows as again you have the issue that SpaceX was a clear 'central part' of NASA's orbital program OTL which I agree lead to the ambitious nature of SpaceX/Musk so having them be an integral part of a BLEO program isn't going to change that attitude given that's technically where we are now. "Conservative" is not how they see themselves despite that being more the case than not. I'd argue that SpaceX has had more support and success than opposition and failure so maybe they need to fail more to turn conservative but that brings a whole raft of new issues.

Their reuse program would also not be more advanced (if anything it may be slowed down), so by the time it became operation (IRL 2018), SpaceX would be quite further along, already deep in the program to return to the moon. The same could be said of Starlink (if it even happens), which would only become profitable after the American return to the moon, all of this would make the conception of the post-Falcon architecture comparatively slower and more conservative.

Reuse was the plan from the start they just found it easier to develop an expendable vehicle first to finalize the design and get it into operation. My main concern is that any planned inclusion in a Lunar return program would still end up being more focused on the development of a Mars vehicle which is frankly beyond the capability of the F9/FH without a radical re-thinking of the basic architecture and/or one imposed from the outside. (aka NASA tells them to use the F9/FH) and we're right back to needing the NASA program to be NOT based on an SDLV but on medium lift "commercial" vehicles. And mind you while I like the idea we're still stuck with the issue the Administrator who proposed that was not one who supported SpaceX or "commercial" launch. Agghhh, where are the damn Tactical Assault Butterflies when you really need them?

Finally for external events, well you can’t really make the Chinese go to the moon much quicker without looking at a 1980s POD.

It wasn't just the Chinese but the fact that even Israel was planning Lunar missions that got the Moon back on the agenda. (Much as Congress tried to pass it off as "been-there-done-that" you can't complain about other nations "challenging the US" on Earth and then let them get away with doing so off-Earth, the optics are terrible :)

I’d be tempted to say that a 2014 full scale Russian invasion of Ukraine would be beneficial to this better off SpaceX but I’m not sure I’m taking into account enough parameters

Not seeing how?

Randy
 
. I don't know that that soon after such a loss how he can't make that decision.
Looking at news article from just before his resignation, it does seem that most people were expecting him to stay at least until the Shuttle RTF, and of course there really was a lot of opposition to his decision he may have to change his position, I think there’s some room to work with.
I don’t even see O’keefe staying all the way up to 2009 after facing Columbia right out of the gate, but we don’t need him, my Idea was just to set up a EELV-dependent constellation program as the baseline, one that gets followed through the SpaceX years.


On the other hand Griffin was the one who started the "COTS" station resupply program
While I do agree that someone like O’keefe would be less likely to promote it there were already signs by 2004, after all Kistler did win a $227 million contract that included ISS docking demonstration that year (which got rescinded, in part because of SX). And the official NASA history says that, for exemple, the VSE Concept compétition was a template for C3PO, or that SpaceX was already considered by NASA in 2004 to develop cargo capabilities, or that the ISS Commercial Cargo Services program was started before Griffin became administrator.

I absolutely can see it being useless, if it doesn’t get enough funding, if SpaceX doesn’t make it through the selection, or if COTS is only an appendix of Constellation ITTL, but I wouldn’t immediately go no Griffin => No COTS.



My first thought seeing WI challenge was that SpaceX would have to be severely screwed, so I wanted to take the problem the other way around and just make make them more successful while accelerating NASA, but now that I think of it the timeline seems way too tight (at least without working with pre-SpaceX founding POD), and even even if FH goes to the moon the sheer timespan between moon and Mars almost ensures a Starship equivalent is made before the later; so really the only way may sadly be to screw SpaceX.

But would screwing them early (before CRS is demonstrated) or later (a few failures in 2017-2020 at the same rate as 2015-2016? That would completely set Back F9 Reuse, Starship dev, Starlink deployment, ComCrew, SpaceX’s bid in Artemis.... but honestly all of these are drop in the ocean for the timespan required to Mars) be better for this challenge?

I am not good at not terribly interested in Muskology, I just believe he is malleable within his goal of going to Mars. I’d tend to believe SpaceX can go in without it him after a certain point but I’m not interested in such AH (Plus that certain point is almost definitely after stuff like Starlink or MCT are decided)
 
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Looking at news article from just before his resignation, it does seem that most people were expecting him to stay at least until the Shuttle RTF, and of course there really was a lot of opposition to his decision he may have to change his position, I think there’s some room to work with.
I don’t even see O’keefe staying all the way up to 2009 after facing Columbia right out of the gate, but we don’t need him, my Idea was just to set up a EELV-dependent constellation program as the baseline, one that gets followed through the SpaceX years.

I can see that but my concern is that SpaceX might not even exist given how much it need Griffin to even exist. At the time O'Keefe (and everyone else) only expected "EELV" to be Atlas and Delta so all in ULA's court.

While I do agree that someone like O’keefe would be less likely to promote it there were already signs by 2004, after all Kistler did win a $227 million contract that included ISS docking demonstration that year. And the official NASA history says that, for exemple, the VSE Concept compétition was a template for C3PO, or that SpaceX was already considered by NASA in 2004 to develop cargo capabilities, or that the ISS Commercial Cargo Services program was started before Griffin became administrator.

Uhm Kistler "won" a single source, no competition contract BECAUSE O'Keefe and the rest of NASA management were pushing to support the ex-NASA employees and managers that ran the company. This was immediately protested and withdrawn so they had to compete against other proposals since the GAO pointed out the 'contract' was for exactly the amount quoted by Kistler to complete and flight test the K1. (Kind of what Griffin did with SpaceX but they didn't get away with it) This was specifically to help out Kistler due to outstanding NASA connections, not an actual interest in "commercial" launch, which is why Boeing and Lockheed protested the award. (Like SpaceX, Kistler was being used to budge them on launch costs and technology)

NASA was considering SpaceX IF they built a bigger vehicle (not the Falcon 1 or Falcon 5) so that was when SpaceX pivoted to the Falcon 9 and announced it's development in 2005. By that time Griffin was in position so they pretty much knew they were going to get NASA funds at some point.

NASA had been "directed" to utilize "commercial" services as much as possible since about 1984 but this essentially meant the choosing between the "usual" contractors of Boeing and Lockheed. Once they joined to create ULA (ULA itself was an outgrowth of the issues with Boeing and Lockheed seeing a shrinking commercial satellite market and the need for more government contracts and since NASA and the DoD wanted 'assured access' the space divisions were merged) there would be essentially no competition and no real 'choice' in launch services. (Not to mention the issue with "single source" launch services being an obvious problem)

The original "Commercial Cargo" was supposed to be continued ULA contracts which SpaceX protested as it was not really "open" initially. (Keep in mind that SpaceX didn't actually have a rocket to compete, just the proposed Falcon 9) Griffin announced the (current) "Commercial Orbital Transport Services" program in 2006 and slid seed money towards SpaceX under that program. Under
O'Keefe it was aimed at the "usual suspects" and under Griffin it was aimed at helping SpaceX out. (Lockheed/Boeing or ULA by this point were already looking to what would become Constellation for their share, which was going to actually take the "EELV's" out of the picture)
I absolutely can see it being useless, if it doesn’t get enough funding, if SpaceX doesn’t make it through the selection, or if COTS is only an appendix of Constellation ITTL, but I wouldn’t immediately go no Griffin => No COTS.

No Griffin then the mission architecture remains using the "EELV's" because that would be ULA's bread and butter instead of development contracts for Orion and an SDLV and no one will be interested in SpaceX other than a possible way to rattle ULA's cage. The difference is that with Griffin then ULA gets a development contract (what became SLS) and SpaceX gets LEO services, with O'Keefe it's more likely ULA gets all of it with maybe another attempt to toss money Kistler's way.

My first thought seeing WI challenge was that SpaceX would have to be severely screwed, so I wanted to take the problem the other way around and just make make them more successful while accelerating NASA, but now that I think of it the timeline seems way too tight (at least without working with pre-SpaceX founding POD), and even even if FH goes to the moon the sheer timespan between moon and Mars almost ensures a Starship equivalent is made before the later; so really the only way may sadly be to screw SpaceX.

But would screwing them early (before CRS is demonstrated) or later (a few failures in 2017-2020 at the same rate as 2015-2016? That would completely set Back F9 Reuse, Starship dev, Starlink deployment, ComCrew, SpaceX’s bid in Artemis.... but honestly all of these are drop in the ocean for the timespan required to Mars) be better for this challenge?

I suspect you're right in that it would require a "pre-SpaceX" POD, more so someone convincing Musk (or his AH equivalent) that Mars isn't the "golden goal" it's been made out to be. Something that points to regular and routine access to space being the 'key' instead of single over-arching goal like Mars. Because that's the real case here in OTL anyway. The 'push' for the commercialization of space launch was SUPPOSED to free up NASA to pursue loftier goals, (such as going to Mars) while "private industry" took over "routine" operations and support in LEO and Cis-Lunar space. The problem is that your major 'customer' remains pretty much NASA who still has to maintain and pay for those operations and support, not leaving a lot for 'other' things and you still end up having to keep pace with that same customer.

A fine line to walk but in context we currently have "SpaceX" (reason for the quotes :) ) threatening to try for Mars before NASA and even using NASA money to develop the possible means so...

I am not good at not terribly interested in Muskology, I just believe he is malleable within his goal of going to Mars. I’d tend to believe SpaceX can go in without it him after a certain point but I’m not interested in such AH (Plus that certain point is almost definitely after stuff like Starlink or MCT are decided)

I'm the opposite as I've not seen much "malleability" in Musk, he can change some details but he tends to stick with a decision he's already made.
And with his mind set, (which as I noted I highly disagree with but ALSO understand :) ) time is a major factor because he's one of those that wants boots on Mars as soon as possible in the belief that all else follows from that. Musk has made the decision that HE personally needs to get to Mars so his entire timetable is based on that expectation. Hence the 'rush' to put boots on Mars despite how immensely hard and expensive that will be. An actual practical timetable would be much longer and frankly an F9/FH/Orbitally Assembly time line will likely be longer yet and include "side-tracks" such as orbital infrastructure and the Moon.

Not really acceptable to someone who sees the window of opportunity closing. The AHC ends up really being "what if I had SpaceX and the money to do this" :)

Randy
 
Apologies folks I just noticed that none of my "likes" registered for some reason. Oh well I guess that means I get to go back and re-read the thread and correct that so bonus :)

Randy
 
If this had an early PoD, we'd have been on Mars six years before Musk was even born. Most of 'his' ideas aren't original, they're recycled from Asimov, Campbell, Clarke, Dick, Heinlein and Niven.
 
If this had an early PoD, we'd have been on Mars six years before Musk was even born. Most of 'his' ideas aren't original, they're recycled from Asimov, Campbell, Clarke, Dick, Heinlein and Niven.

Eh, the problem is a lot more complex than that of course :)

We've got a timeline here (IIRC) which continues the premise of Baxters "Voyage" novel where instead of the Shuttle we get a pretty much one-shot Mars landing program and in there (the novel that is) the same type of "movement" comes about only decrying that we should have built reusable a Space Shuttle instead of continuing to use Apollo derived hardware because by doing so we'd have orbital space stations and Moonbases instead of "flags-and-footprints" on Mars.

And it's right of course in its own way :) What we NEED is a two-fold issue of both cheap and routine access to space coupled with solid set of reasons and requirements that give us an economic and/or social "need" to expand our presence in space. Considering how basic a "reason/requirement" of "Species Survival" should be and it's not that tells us we've got a long way to go still.

As I noted it's down to a basic misunderstanding of how "public interest" works, an unfounded belief that there are more people "interested" (enough to put time, money, effort and possibly their lives into it) in "space" than there really are and a bit of wish fulfillment in it all just needing a single "spark" to take off. It has always been and likely will always be a "process" that takes time among other things. Actually one of the things I remember most about reading Heinlein was he at one point admitted that it would likely take quite a while with someone "pouring money down the rathole of space" to make things work because you need a lot of background and basic factors and situations to make people want to leave a nice comfortable planet for the cold hard life on another one out in space. (And keep in mind that for most of those early writers those "other planets" were not in fact that different from Earth and usually a far cry from what we actually have to deal with... Oh and hot Martian Princess lets not forget :) )

Frontiers on Earth were/are hard, cruel exercises in finding new ways to die horribly and space is worse but "I" for one still want to go. Unlike Musk however I've a bit more extensive list of ways I DON'T want to die OTHER than "on impact" :)

Randy
 
Interesting cross-over thoughts from this thread here, in that the architecture (in general) could be used for the Moon as well as building up for Mars if we assume some commonality and building in modularity.

Using Centaur as a general "tug" (assuming a LEO propellant depot architecture) the general "LEV" design come in below the 15mt reusable figure for Falcon 9 to LEO. (You'd have to break up the propellant load of 36,600lb/16,601mt or launch it on a Falcon Heavy, but since I'm contemplating a propellant depot that's actually 'bonus' flights :) )

Going to Mars we'd have to decide an architecture there. Going with @Nixonhead's "Cycler" once THAT gets assembled and put into operation then you have to move a Dragon capsule from LEO to intercept and then back it down again for LEO or reentry or would you use a dedicated transfer vehicle? (Centaur based again?) The nice thing about using Dragon is you can likely 'self-rescue' if you miss a rendezvous, but I suppose you could design that into a transfer vehicle as well.

Part of the reason (IMHO for what it's worth :) ) of going back to the Moon is as a departure point for such trips as it allows expansion of your options for getting to Mars. (My "personal" favorite is something akin to the "Space Coach" SEP spacecraft concept, YMMV) And you can always drop from Lunar orbit and slingshot around Earth to save some delta-v. (Good enough for the Stone Family it's good enough for me :) ) Which might help support a Cycler system.

Randy
 
So... Looking at a general "architecture" using something along the lines of the "Multi-Purpose Logistics Module" (MPLM) for "standard" modules (15ft/4.5m in diameter and 21ft/6.4m long and has a dry mass of about 9,700lb/4.4mt) for the concept basis. (I wish there was more information on the Axiom inflatable module, though there was also the Bigelow modules at the time) The LEV from the ELA concept could put about 8.5mt on the Lunar Surface which is a good 'working number' to start with. The biggest issue of course is the Mars lander since it has to deliver a reasonable amount of payload to the surface ("100mt to 150mt" is NOT really reasonable, more like 20mt to 60mt) in a reusable (in general if not specific, see below) manner.

Assuming a similar to OTL "plan" with a Lunar Gateway, LEO propellant Depot (likely based on ACES), Propellant and Propulsion Modules (PPM) a Methalox propellant system and something like a scaled down "Hercules"/"Small Falcon Starship" concept I can see both or either architecture working for both the Moon and Mars at least for the initial exploration and outpost phase. (The "Hercules" basic concept, especially if the modularity option is used, allows a rapid outpost/base build up for both infrastructure and habitats so that should translate over. Using the landed propellant tanks and "crew" sections to rapidly expand the base/outpost as needed)

Expanding on that we could work in the "POWOW" (Power Without Wires) SEP cargo tug/orbital power satellite system which would expand on surface and space power systems allowing incremental delivery of larger (overall) cargo flights and incremental expansion of available power to expand operations.

If we can get a new Falcon upper stage using a higher energy propellant then we can likely hit 20mt in a reusable mode for the Booster, with the upper stage being either "expended" (in 'quotes' due to there being uses once you have the stage 'on-orbit' to play with, take apart or use in space) or possibly reusable, which allows the MPLM "module" to become essentially and ISO module in space used for shipping to and from just about anywhere.

I could see with a similar timeframe/effort as we've seen for Starship that SpaceX could have most of this ready by 2020 or thereabouts, probably another 5 years of getting operations up and running and another five years at least for getting to Mars on a regular basis and getting initial site selection and outpost preparation ready. All with a growing on-orbit (LEO) presence and expansion supported by Dragon and later manned vehicles and arguably full reusability on the Falcon vehicles.

Damn, now I want this future :)

Randy
 
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Well much as I like that last scenario digging a bit deeper it does not look plausible from a "mechanics" stand point. Some aspects would work but the general architecture would more likely be a "Starship-lite" scenario with a Falcon Heavy boosted "Mini-Starship" doing the duty of being the main vehicle. The main needed POD is somehow convincing Musk that 20 or so metric tons to Mars is an acceptable payload mass and I'm just not sure how to do that in a plausible way.

Randy
 
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