WI: Failed Communist Revolution in the 1970's

Here's the scenario: a communist organization such as Weather Underground attempts to overthrow the US government through an armed revolution. They are stopped by the FBI, but some government officials and/or employees are injured and killed in the crossfire. There are smaller uprisings in other cities. How would this affect American domestic policy towards communism throughout the rest of the Cold War?
 
Here's the scenario: a communist organization such as Weather Underground attempts to overthrow the US government through an armed revolution. They are stopped by the FBI, but some government officials and/or employees are injured and killed in the crossfire. There are smaller uprisings in other cities. How would this affect American domestic policy towards communism throughout the rest of the Cold War?

Given that your POD is somewhere back before the crushing of the IWW, if not in the late 19th century, why is there an FBI at all?
 
This is in the 1970's, in the middle of the Cold War. The FBI was formed in 1908.

The 1970s is way too late for it to be anything more than a joke. The US government is far too stable by that time. You might have a few easily put down riots break out in the inner city, with minimal long term effects.
 
Given that your POD is somewhere back before the crushing of the IWW, if not in the late 19th century, why is there an FBI at all?

This is in the 1970's, in the middle of the Cold War. The FBI was formed in 1908.

I think what he's saying is that the Weather Underground was never big enough to launch that kind of uprising at all, and that in order for it to become big enough you'd need a much earlier POD.
 
more than that, it COMPLETELY misses the point that the student protest movements from 1960's Woolworth sit-in through 1970's Kent State massacre had no interest in Communism, whatsoever. Their goal was that the US should live up to its ideals of freedom and democracy for all, along with peace in Vietnam.

There was no interest in overthrowing the US government and putting a communist government in place.
 
You can get groups like the Weather Underground to grow and go all IRA in the US. I personally think that scenario works dystopically best and is most plausible if there is heavier Right-Wing based assaults on the left and radicalism.

The Commie scenario, however, no.
 

Incognito

Banned
I think what he's saying is that the Weather Underground was never big enough to launch that kind of uprising at all, and that in order for it to become big enough you'd need a much earlier POD.
Maybe there could be a far-left organization with enough fanatical members to carry out terrorist attack(s) "in order to ferment a communist revolution" (think Weather Underground/Red Army Faction mixed with Charles Manson's Cult and a bit of al-Qaeda thrown in)? In reality the attacks would be nowhere near causing a spontaneous communist revolution but if the members of the organization are fanatical and deluded enough, they might believe that's what will happen.
 
This would require the Weather Underground to have more than a couple dozen guys, and be generally competent at blowing people up other than themselves.
 
Maybe there could be a far-left organization with enough fanatical members to carry out terrorist attack(s) "in order to ferment a communist revolution" (think Weather Underground/Red Army Faction mixed with Charles Manson's Cult and a bit of al-Qaeda thrown in)? In reality the attacks would be nowhere near causing a spontaneous communist revolution but if the members of the organization are fanatical and deluded enough, they might believe that's what will happen.

Where's the state sponsorship coming from?

Where's the "mass" that the RAF was in reasonable contact with? That al-Qaeda are in contact with?

In reality the attacks would be nowhere near causing a spontaneous communist revolution...

Propaganda by the deed has never caused a "spontaneous" revolution. Spain and Russia had multiple goes before hand, and were both reliant on workplace organisation. Germany and Hungary 1919 both were dependent on long standing militant syndicalism in industrial factories. Hungary 1956 and Czechoslovakia 1968 were again dependent on workplace organisation. Italy had a failed go, a go-around on orders, massive CP and SP forces, a Maoist ultra circle, and Autonomia in the factories.

The US, in the post-war period, has nothing approaching the basis for this. The efforts to shift motor construction, rail, coal, docks leftwards were stymied by effective action by capital and the state. Recruitment of permanent working class activists to parties was limited, and the number of parties that conducted genuine theoretical work through industrial practice was yet more limited. (We can point at Braverman, Dunayevskaya and the "Radical Amerika" journal.)

The hysteric reaction of the SLA and Weathermen was radical liberalism. They're even less connected to the traditions of armed working class struggle than the RAF, who at least, were the most well known example of a milieu of anti-state armed West Germans.

Sure, if the shocks of the 1970s are handled incredibly poorly, there's the possibility of US industrial workers developing towards the position that Italian workers were in, minus the Communist or Socialist Parties, in the late 1950s: disempowered, militant and dominated thoroughly by capital. As opposed to the same except quiescent instead of militant.

The required changes are way back at the last attempt to institutionalise radical working class politics in the United States, in the IWW period. Or the attempt prior. Or the attempt prior. And the presence of an IWW continuation through the 1920s obliterates "communism" as we know it in the United States. Also wipes out the CIO. And it means a bloodier 1930s, at least at the scale of the Paterson strike or the Pinkerton massacres of UWM in the teens.

This thread is rather ASB, and needs to go through a reading of the preconditions of armed action in the left, and the preconditions of successful left organisation.

yours,
Sam R.
 
The required changes are way back at the last attempt to institutionalise radical working class politics in the United States, in the IWW period. Or the attempt prior. Or the attempt prior. And the presence of an IWW continuation through the 1920s obliterates "communism" as we know it in the United States. Also wipes out the CIO. And it means a bloodier 1930s, at least at the scale of the Paterson strike or the Pinkerton massacres of UWM in the teens.

This thread is rather ASB, and needs to go through a reading of the preconditions of armed action in the left, and the preconditions of successful left organisation.

yours,
Sam R.

The IWW did survive the Palmer Raids, granted in a much more gutted and weakened form which was unable to really regain its prior influence thanks to a number of factors although they did see an upswing in membership in the 1960s, the late 70s, the 90s, and are seeing some resurgence now. That said I agree on the general premise; for any kind of mass radical leftist revolution to happen in the US the Wobblies need to come through the Palmer Raids MUCH stronger than they did OTL or the Palmer Raids need to be taken off the table. A mass revolution, given the circumstances of the 1960s, was effectively not possible especially not a Communist one. The last, and only time, American communism ever had a shot was in the 1930s and that would have been an incredibly lucky shot or it would require a setup like Jello's Reds! TL to make plausible.
 
The IWW did survive the Palmer Raids, granted in a much more gutted and weakened form which was unable to really regain its prior influence thanks to a number of factors

Partly their place in the ecosystem was destroyed by the Moscow aligned CPUSA supporting much tamer unions. And of course I know of the history of the CIO's foundation, and internal wildcat opposition. But it is much removed from the IWW that the IWW was becoming in the teens.

although they did see an upswing in membership in the 1960s, the late 70s, the 90s, and are seeing some resurgence now.

And more power to the OBU.

That said I agree on the general premise; for any kind of mass radical leftist revolution to happen in the US the Wobblies need to come through the Palmer Raids MUCH stronger than they did OTL or the Palmer Raids need to be taken off the table. A mass revolution, given the circumstances of the 1960s, was effectively not possible especially not a Communist one. The last, and only time, American communism ever had a shot was in the 1930s and that would have been an incredibly lucky shot or it would require a setup like Jello's Reds! TL to make plausible.

Good points. One way to get a specifically communist revolution in the US is to have the IWW survive, but outcompete the CPUSA equivalent; turn yellow dog during the second world war of whatever kind, and then have the Soviet Union appear as the lesser of two evils for leftist organisers in the USA. This would, of course, be vastly improved by a Soviet Union that thoroughly reformed itself, or at the minimum, was as bad as Yugoslavia. Which is a stretch.

yours,
Sam R.
 
more than that, it COMPLETELY misses the point that the student protest movements from 1960's Woolworth sit-in through 1970's Kent State massacre had no interest in Communism, whatsoever. Their goal was that the US should live up to its ideals of freedom and democracy for all, along with peace in Vietnam.

There was no interest in overthrowing the US government and putting a communist government in place.

I think you may be protesting too much. It is true that the New Left was not Communism, but that did not mean there were not those among them who believed in a violent overthrow of the US government to accomplish radical left wing aims. To many ordinary Americans in the 1970s, it sounds like Communism regardless of the esoteric disputes between the Judean People's Front, the People's Front of Judea, and the Popular Front of Judea.

Now a great majority of the student protest movement was actually an anti-draft movement whose commitment ended the moment they heard they would not be drafted to serve in Vietnam. But there were many people, particular in the leadership, who drank the kool aid of the Students for a Democratic Society and other New Left radical politics. Out of this group, there was a subset who convinced themselves that violent revolutionary activity was needed and began to do it such as the Weathermen. Many of these people, even those who rejected violence, believed a lot of nonsense things about Communism which made them effectively pro-Communist by being anti-anti-Communist.
 
Going back to the original post, all it sounds like the OP is describing is a more intense left wing violent terrorism in the US similar to what happened in Europe around the same time - the Years of Lead of the Red Army Faction in Germany, the Red Brigades in Italy, and various other groups.

This isn't all that unrealistic - we don't need massive changes in history of the IWW to convince a larger group of ignorant kids/young adults steeped in left wing radicalism to start killing more people.

If so, I don't see much change in US policy except that the US is likely to authorize more invasive and harsher domestic survelliance and police measures. It will probably strengthen the political right and bring them to power more quickly.
 
Top