Archibald
Banned
http://john-golan.blogspot.fr/2016/10/the-lavi-and-f-16xl-contrast-in.html
Stop being arrogant like that.
Stop being arrogant like that.
WI: F-16 is Cancelled
- Thread starter Have Blue-117
- Start date
Direct quote from your own, supplied link:
'The Lavi, in contrast, was a clean sheet design. The Lavi developers had more latitude to optimize their configuration, but had to strictly control the airplane's size if they wanted to control production costs on what was expected to be a relatively small production run of some 300 airframes. The F-16XL resulted in a bigger airplane, with a larger range and payload. The Lavi resulted in a very compact package with an astounding range for its small size. Again, the two design teams operated from different restrictions on what they could or couldn't do. Both great designs, but with different limitations.'
Um....
Archibald
Banned
Well, quoting what's convenient to you. How easy. This is the reference book on Lavi.
http://john-golan.blogspot.fr/2016/05/lavi-engineers-perspective.html
I'm now out this thread. I don't want to get banned because of such unfair treatment.
http://john-golan.blogspot.fr/2016/05/lavi-engineers-perspective.html
I'm now out this thread. I don't want to get banned because of such unfair treatment.
Getting back on topic:
I see if the F-16 does get cancelled several thing might happen
The F-20 program goes forward, it does not have the same future growth potential as the F-16 but it will become the new light weight fighter for ANG
Europe buys in the the Dassault Mirage F1, it becomes the standard fighter of NATO and allies
The F-18L starts getting looked at and after a couple of redesigns and "added features" you have something closer to the F-18E/F in size but designed for land, lighter landing gear, no folding wings, it become the "high end" model for NATO and allies, it might get a new name
Some specific ideas
Australia buys the F-18L as they want the dual engine and range
Canada same, but might build a version with the heavy duty landing gear
The Japanese F2 is the F-18L with some minor upgrades, and as it is not a full redesign of the F-16 it is cheaper so they buy what they planned on buying
I see if the F-16 does get cancelled several thing might happen
The F-20 program goes forward, it does not have the same future growth potential as the F-16 but it will become the new light weight fighter for ANG
Europe buys in the the Dassault Mirage F1, it becomes the standard fighter of NATO and allies
The F-18L starts getting looked at and after a couple of redesigns and "added features" you have something closer to the F-18E/F in size but designed for land, lighter landing gear, no folding wings, it become the "high end" model for NATO and allies, it might get a new name
Some specific ideas
Australia buys the F-18L as they want the dual engine and range
Canada same, but might build a version with the heavy duty landing gear
The Japanese F2 is the F-18L with some minor upgrades, and as it is not a full redesign of the F-16 it is cheaper so they buy what they planned on buying
Well, that's it for you.
Kicked for a week, not just for this post but for an entire chain of them.
See ya' in 7.
On this entire discussion.
I don't think the F20 would stand a chance, it is just a warmed up F5.
as for the dassault F1, not so certain it would win, for the Netherlands i would say the Saab Viggen would have a better chance. considering the tornado idea was already being floated, some might delay replacement and finally buy the tornado instead
I don't think the F20 would stand a chance, it is just a warmed up F5.
as for the dassault F1, not so certain it would win, for the Netherlands i would say the Saab Viggen would have a better chance. considering the tornado idea was already being floated, some might delay replacement and finally buy the tornado instead
Lets list all the possibilities
Dassault Mirage F1-M53 warload 4000kg
Saab 37 Viggen warload 7000kg
Northrop F20 warload 3600kg
when procurement delayed:
Panavia Tornado warload 9000Kg
Dassault Mirage 2000 warload 6300kg
comparison the F16 has 7700Kg warload
on the F1, there is a reason the mirage 2000 was developed, the F1 was seen as not enough airplane.
Dassault Mirage F1-M53 warload 4000kg
Saab 37 Viggen warload 7000kg
Northrop F20 warload 3600kg
when procurement delayed:
Panavia Tornado warload 9000Kg
Dassault Mirage 2000 warload 6300kg
comparison the F16 has 7700Kg warload
on the F1, there is a reason the mirage 2000 was developed, the F1 was seen as not enough airplane.
Viggen would be an excellent choice, with all the desired roles available from, fundamentally, the same airframe, and with a host of operational features which are highly desirable in the European context. Yet, concerns will remain regarding product support in all scenarios when buying from an ostensibly neutral nation.
Tornado is rather too much, and too expensive - with the 'fighter' option being significantly different from the IDS & also being specifically tailored to the UK's interceptor requirement. There would also be difficulty in increasing the production tempo, with the line already at full tilt from 1980, to fulfil such an order in a timely fashion.
F-20, although rather more than a 'warmed up' F-5, along with the Mirage 2000 are a little too far down the line (as production aircraft) to be front runners.
All in all, it's difficult to see any real world procurement decision which doesn't conclude the Mirage F1 is the only viable, timely option.
Tornado is rather too much, and too expensive - with the 'fighter' option being significantly different from the IDS & also being specifically tailored to the UK's interceptor requirement. There would also be difficulty in increasing the production tempo, with the line already at full tilt from 1980, to fulfil such an order in a timely fashion.
F-20, although rather more than a 'warmed up' F-5, along with the Mirage 2000 are a little too far down the line (as production aircraft) to be front runners.
All in all, it's difficult to see any real world procurement decision which doesn't conclude the Mirage F1 is the only viable, timely option.
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Considering US government procurement fun and games plus the European Participation Group to try and off-set some of the costs/maintain their defence aviation industries wouldn't any replacement, Viggen or Mirage, likely require licensed production?
I'd assumed that Wietze's comments address the European nations with a need to replace their F-104, F-100 & early F-5 fleets, and that's where my assessment lies.
I cannot see the US treading this path at all, save for perhaps buying a small number (1 - 200) of a Tornado SEAD variant, as was indeed mooted in reality. This becomes more likely in a world where the USAF runs with the F-4 as a tactical fighter for longer. Aside from that, they'll wait until a new programme surfaces, be it F-20 or otherwise, and certainly procure more F-15s.
Politically - on both sides, there's more chance of The Pope becoming a crack - crazed serial killer, than there is of the US even license building any of Marcel's finest.
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Ak-84
Banned
PAF F-16 kills against the Soviet Air Force in the Afghan War were against "poorly trainined (sic) pilots"?
I suspect the Mirage F-1 becomes the main European and ME/South Asia fighter. Its like the Mirage III/F4 issue for a new generation.
Cryhavoc101
Donor
Well PAF vs Soviet airforce represents a handful of the F16 Kills (and the only F16 lost in ATA) - of those 8 known ATA kills 4 were SU22 Bombers, 1 a SU25 Bomber, 1 a An-26 and only 2 were Mig 23 Fighters (a MIG23 did kill a PAF F16)
So my statement "these were almost all vs much poorer quality AC and Pilots" Stands up!
Hammerbolt
Donor
The US builds a new version of the F-5, either the F-20 or something similar. Dassault sells F1s like popcorn...
Ak-84
Banned
(The A2A loss was an own goal, as post action PAF discovered, a Sidewinder from his wingman hit an F16 which had evaded a MiG-23 shot ).
Those were 8 confirmed kills, as in the debris fell inside Pakistan. Where debris fell inside AStan, PAF did not officially claim the kill, even if they had camera footage or intercept confirmation. Actual kills are believed to be in the low 20's. (The F16 loss happened inside Afghan Airspace).
Cryhavoc101
Donor
Going to be honest - I had little knowledge of the these clashes. Thanks for drawing attention to them. Very interesting
However after some google fu it does appear that the F16 lost was a result of its pilot not maintain formation behind his leader and as a result when his leader engaged the Russian planes - "Flt.Lt. Shahid Sikander, flew in front of his leader and directly in front of the AIM-9L which re-locked and scored a direct hit" the Russian flight of Mig23s were not even aware they were being engaged until their leader "Lt.Col. Pochitalkin" saw Sikander's F16 falling in flames so the PAF fighters had not been engaged at all.
But these things happen!
Reading further into the actions it does appear that the majority of the targets engaged by the PAF F16s where Afgan Airforce operated Su22/25 and Russian operated Mig 21 and 23 nearly always being used in the Ground attack role on interdiction ops where the most deadly threat was the employment of hundreds of US/Pakistan supplied Stinger Missiles and not the PAF.
So again as I said its inferior AC being engaged by better aircraft and better Pilots in the majority of the engagements
What's also interesting is that the Chinese Built F6s that the F16s replaced where not upto the task mainly because their endurance once on station was insufficient to perform a decent CAP and their Sensors were not as good as the F16s.
Many comments on the various forums I visited seem to agree that the Mirage F1 would have done an equally good job as a Ground Radar directed interceptor.