WI: Föhr votes joining Denmark in the Schleswig Plebiscites

[Valdemar II]

WI: Föhr votes for rejoining Denmark in the Schleswig Plebiscites

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schleswig_Plebiscites
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Föhr

In the plebiscite the hamlets of Utersum, Witsum and Hedehusum voted for rejoining Denmark, while a small majority on the rest of the Island voted for staying German. So what if a small majority of the island voted for rejoin Denmark.

It would be weird the Island was somewhat isolated from the areas which voted Danish, but it was still a coherent geography unit, so Denmark would likely have annexed it.

Föhn are interesting because even with the high support to rejoin Denmark, the island speak North Frisian and used German as church and school language. Even today it's the main area of North Frisian speakers (home to 30% of Frisian speakers), with almost half the population speaking it. The geographic isolation from the rest of Denmark and the wide use of North Frisian, would likely result in the language surviving to even large degree, it's even likely to stay majority language.

 

[Rattenfänger von Memphis]

It would be weird the Island was somewhat isolated from the areas which voted Danish, but it was still a coherent geography unit, so Denmark would likely have annexed it.

A very interesting historical sidelight. I especially enjoyed the detailed maps.

I think also that Denmark would have annexed the island had that been possible. It would have been no more isolated from Denmark than East Prussia was from the rest of Germany.

 

[Kvasir]

Seems to me if it was really all about self determination there is no way on God's green Earth that Tondern should be anywhere other than Germany.

 

[Susano]

It would be isolated enough for Föhr to be completely surrounded by German territorial waters. It gets interesting once Germany starts to build the Hindenburg Dam, really cutting Föhr off from Denmark, but unless its specifically stated otherwise in the treaties the territory between Sylt and the mainland would still be German waters... and I must admit, I can see Germany being petty about the issue, even though North Schleswig was never a problem. So legal hassles about entering or leaving Föhr could become quite much. AndEast Prussia at least had access to international waters...

Kvasir: Yeah, well. If you look only at Wilsons Ten Points, nevermind British or French positions, youll see its always "National Self-Determination except when Germans [and Hungarians] are concerned".

 

[Kvasir]

Kvasir: Yeah, well. If you look only at Wilsons Ten Points, nevermind British or French positions, youll see its always "National Self-Determination except when Germans [and Hungarians] are concerned".

Aye: Austria, Sudetenland, Ödenburg, Pressburg, South Tyrol, Eupen and "The German Speaking Community of Belgium", Danzig, Memelland and others attest to that policy.

 

[Wendell]

Aye: Austria, Sudetenland, Ödenburg, Pressburg, South Tyrol, Eupen and "The German Speaking Community of Belgium", Danzig, Memelland and others attest to that policy.

Thus, we have part of the reason why the Versailles treaty was so damnable.

 

[Susano]

Aye: Austria, Sudetenland, Ödenburg, Pressburg, South Tyrol, Eupen and "The German Speaking Community of Belgium", Danzig, Memelland and others attest to that policy.

Well, Ödenburg was not a result of allied policy. Thats the Hungarians fault. One could also name Bromberg and Thorn, at least at the end of the war - ten years later, few Germans were left there. But yes, it was a bit flagrant how Austria was forbidden to rejoin Germany, or how the Czech paramilitarily conquered the Sudetenland. OTOH, that is why "Successful Weimar" scenarios have so much potential

As for Föhr, as said, I think initially there would be some German hassles, but most likely Germany would get over it, if only as a matter of pragmatism. After all, the main aim were the eastern territories, no need to piss off even a smaller state like Denmark over so few territory. But as said, once the direct route to Föhr is cut off by the Hindenburg Dam, linking the mainland and Sylt, its position could get interesting, if not necessarily problematic.

 

[Wendell]

Well, Ödenburg was not a result of allied policy. Thats the Hungarians fault. One could also name Bromberg and Thorn, at least at the end of the war - ten years later, few Germans were left there. But yes, it was a bit flagrant how Austria was forbidden to rejoin Germany, or how the Czech paramilitarily conquered the Sudetenland. OTOH, that is why "Successful Weimar" scenarios have so much potential

As for Föhr, as said, I think initially there would be some German hassles, but most likely Germany would get over it, if only as a matter of pragmatism. After all, the main aim were the eastern territories, no need to piss off even a smaller state like Denmark over so few territory. But as said, once the direct route to Föhr is cut off by the Hindenburg Dam, linking the mainland and Sylt, its position could get interesting, if not necessarily problematic.

That too could be potentially interesting, and the butterflies could be as well. Would the League of Nations get to mediate a German/Danish dispute?

 

[Kvasir]

Well, Ödenburg was not a result of allied policy. Thats the Hungarians fault. One could also name Bromberg and Thorn, at least at the end of the war - ten years later, few Germans were left there. But yes, it was a bit flagrant how Austria was forbidden to rejoin Germany, or how the Czech paramilitarily conquered the Sudetenland. OTOH, that is why "Successful Weimar" scenarios have so much potential

It's also why GrossDeutschland is so popular here I guess. I've seen some truly... inspired (?) map works which are able to absorb practically all of Europe, though WWII PODs are kind of depressing. Take the Low countries and from France: Nord-Pas-de-Calais, Alsace-Lorraine, and Franche-Comté. Take Swizerland and some Northern Italian states of you fancy it. Take as much as Jutland before you blush; the Prussian border after the 3rd partition of Poland and the Baltic Duchy. Some may take Lithuania with a straight face. Follow the third partition down to Galicia and I've seen people with the gall to incorporate Hungary, Croatia and Dalmatia.

By this point it's less "Grossdeutschland" and more Central European Empire.

 

[Susano]

It's also why GrossDeutschland is so popular here I guess. I've seen some truly... inspired (?) map works which are able to absorb practically all of Europe, though WWII PODs are kind of depressing. Take the Low countries and from France: Nord-Pas-de-Calais, Alsace-Lorraine, and Franche-Comté. Take Swizerland and some Northern Italian states of you fancy it. Take as much as Jutland before you blush; the Prussian border after the 3rd partition of Poland and the Baltic Duchy. Some may take Lithuania with a straight face. Follow the third partition down to Galicia and I've seen people with the gall to incorporate Hungary, Croatia and Dalmatia.

By this point it's less "Grossdeutschland" and more Central European Empire.

Well, even our most... infamous Großdeutschland TL (if it can be called that) didnt go that far. And actually, even with so much territory there would probably still be a German majority, if maybe not by much. But, eh, Interwar Germany plus a "Thorn-Bromberg-Kulm corridor" to East Prussia, plus the Sudetenland, plus Austria and plus South Tyrol (sans Trentino) would be enough for me. Well, maybe some better borders in Upper Silesia and Posen; and Eupen+Malmedy and Ödenburg, but those are minor things Anyway, that would be about ideal.

 

[Kvasir]

Well, even our most... infamous Großdeutschland TL (if it can be called that) didnt go that far. And actually, even with so much territory there would probably still be a German majority, if maybe not by much. But, eh, Interwar Germany plus a "Thorn-Bromberg-Kulm corridor" to East Prussia, plus the Sudetenland, plus Austria and plus South Tyrol (sans Trentino) would be enough for me. Well, maybe some better borders in Upper Silesia and Posen; and Eupen+Malmedy and Ödenburg, but those are minor things Anyway, that would be about ideal.

True, that's a reasonable landmass I'd be OK with. Well there is Tondern from Denmark but that is very small.

It depends on your POD too. A post 1900 POD could easily see Alsace-Lorraine, Luxemburg and Memelland retained/aquired without too much imagination. Again, just minor things

 

[ivanotter]

Very interesting question.

The votes must also be seen in the light of the deliberate settlement policy of Germany after the Danish-German war in 1864 (Denmark lost a good piece of territory there). The voting in 1920 reflected the German settlements

That said, the border has been a contested ever since Charlemagne and the "natura;" border is somewhat a bit further South.

Having been born in Denmark I can attest to the fact that just driving south from the border (at least in my childhood) was still like Denmark until suddenly, nearly from one street to the next, you would be in Germany proper. Names of people would change, city names would be German, language spoken would change. Still amazes me.

The entire area is a mix anyway so Germany would probably just get over it. They gained more than anybody could have hoped for after WWI.

Ivan