WI: Expansionist Korea

Correct me if I am wrong but, excluding China, Korea for some of its history was surrounded by a sometimes unstable Japan to the east and Manchu tribes to the north. Assuming Korea had gotten a ruler interested in empire-building, could they have (via puppets if necessary) expanded into these regions without China putting a stop to it?
 
It's not like none of the kings of Goryeo and Joseon weren't interested in empire building, it's just that the window for such behavior is really limited in the Chinese sphere of influence and often became more of an economic burden on untenable lands. Manchuria, especially the Liaodong peninsula, has long been a region that the Chinese empires had considerable interest in and so Korea having land there would be a conflict of interest that would inevitably end in a loss.

The best example of a Korean-based empire would be the Goguryeo realm, which seized on the disunity in China and the failures of the Sui dynasty to expand its borders into Southern Manchuria. The moment it started to falter, though, the Tang dynasty partnered with the Silla to wipe the Goguryeo off the map, which was doable because China gives so much more in terms of resources, like money and manpower, that a conflict between a Korean empire and a Chinese empire in the premodern era would at best be a predetermined war of attrition and at worst a total defeat.

The Goryeo tried to seize the Liaodong peninsula but possible conflict with the ascendant Ming led to the coup that ended the Goryeo and heralded in the Joseon. The Joseon tried to influence and make tributaries out of the Jurchen tribes but were blocked from doing so by the Ming, who had their own interests in Manchuria. And any forts built too far from the border were deemed too expensive to maintain, since there wasn't much to gain from controlling vulnerable frontier lands which could easily be raided by Jurchens or by nomadic steppe tribes.

As for Japan, it wasn't really seen as all that important back centuries ago, since China was the real prize. Japan was seen as the periphery of civilisation. Amphibious warfare being insanely difficult aside, there wasn't ever interest in expanding into the Japanese isles in any Korean dynasty, especially with how difficult it was to combat piracy in general and the budgetary strain war incurred. Even if the Joseon tried to expand into the Japanese Islands, they'd be fighting on foreign lands against battle-hardened defenders who all speak the same (or similar enough) language, so making allies would be hard and maintain a grasp would be harder. The Goryeo had no chance of ever doing something like that (other than if the Yuan succeeded in invading Japan and put part of it into Goryeo administration) due to pressure from the north (Liao, Jin, Mongols).

So there could've been brief moments of expansion but it would've been very difficult for any Korean nation to maintain a hold on such areas and the Korean courts generally opposed such efforts in general.
 
No one was stopping them going after Sakhalin or Kamchatka.
Well, except economics, weather, hostile natives, logistics, and having no reason to go there. There was nothing for any Korean dynasty to gain from trying to go after Sakhalin or Kamchatka and colonial expeditions were expensive. Prisoners could be exiled to the islands around Korea, like how Jejudo was used OTL, and Manchuria was always a far nicer choice for an agricultural economy than anything that far north.
 
Not too versed on Korean history, but how about the Philippines? In the off chance Spain doesn't take the Philippines (wasn't guarenteed) for some reason or just that Spain never exists, Korea could take it for reasons such as land, trade, resources or even just a penal colony.

I really think a Korean historian could do this better than i can.
 
Not too versed on Korean history, but how about the Philippines? In the off chance Spain doesn't take the Philippines (wasn't guarenteed) for some reason or just that Spain never exists, Korea could take it for reasons such as land, trade, resources or even just a penal colony.

The Phillipines or Formosa would be possible, especially if Ryukyu ends up Korean for whatever reason, but I don't know if they'd be sustainable in the long term. Eventually (unless butterflies mean that it itself is colonized) Japan will have every incentive to have a more powerful navy than Korea--essentially an England vs. France scenario. Thus, by alt-Meiji restoration, Korea's days will be numbered even if they also modernize.

And this, of course, assumes that the Portuguese or Dutch won't pick up the Philippines instead, which I think more likely than Korea since the former two had already demonstrated their ability to project power on the other side of the world.
 
The Phillipines or Formosa would be possible, especially if Ryukyu ends up Korean for whatever reason, but I don't know if they'd be sustainable in the long term. Eventually (unless butterflies mean that it itself is colonized) Japan will have every incentive to have a more powerful navy than Korea--essentially an England vs. France scenario. Thus, by alt-Meiji restoration, Korea's days will be numbered even if they also modernize.

And this, of course, assumes that the Portuguese or Dutch won't pick up the Philippines instead, which I think more likely than Korea since the former two had already demonstrated their ability to project power on the other side of the world.
Formosa not Luzon is feasible since Luzon was Muslim just before the Spanish came.
 
The Phillipines or Formosa would be possible, especially if Ryukyu ends up Korean for whatever reason, but I don't know if they'd be sustainable in the long term. Eventually (unless butterflies mean that it itself is colonized) Japan will have every incentive to have a more powerful navy than Korea--essentially an England vs. France scenario. Thus, by alt-Meiji restoration, Korea's days will be numbered even if they also modernize.

And this, of course, assumes that the Portuguese or Dutch won't pick up the Philippines instead, which I think more likely than Korea since the former two had already demonstrated their ability to project power on the other side of the world.
True, but if Korea had a colonial empire, it would probably overtake Japan within a century or so, and with time might stop being subordinate to the Ming (this would only really happen if Korea would become a Great Power, since it would have no reason to become hostile to China atleast until the IR.) Do you think Japan would pursue overseas colonies if say, Korea had control of Formosa and the Philippines?

I'm thinking Korea would take it sometime around the 15th or 16th centuries, where the Netherlands didn't exist yet, and maybe a less expansionist Portugal, but making that happen is hard.
 
IIRC Mindanao and parts of Visayas were muslim, not Luzon.
Lowland Luzon was Muslim before the Spanish came it was Visayas that was primarily pagan, that is why the Spanish colonised Visayas first.

Source
Bangsamoro, a Nation Under Endless Tyranny by Salah Jubair
 
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Hyojong of Joseon (3 July 1619 – 23 June 1659) was the seventeenth king of the Joseon Dynasty of Korea from 1649 to 1659. He is best known for his plan for expedition to Manchu Qing dynasty and his campaigns against the Russian Empireby the request of Qing dynasty. His plan for the northern expedition was never put into action since he died before the campaign started.
Yeah, Hyojong had the plan but, by his reign, the Qing were already ascendant and fighting them after two previous losses, both within the last 30 years, would be poorly advised at best. In conjunction with the Revolt of the Three Feudatories, perhaps Joseon Korea could've seen some success but, again, the issue of actually holding the territory for long enough becomes and issue. Plus, Hyojong was long dead by that point and keeping a nation like Korea militarised would be difficult to maintain economically and socially.

Not too versed on Korean history, but how about the Philippines? In the off chance Spain doesn't take the Philippines (wasn't guarenteed) for some reason or just that Spain never exists, Korea could take it for reasons such as land, trade, resources or even just a penal colony.

I really think a Korean historian could do this better than i can.
Again, not really ever in the Joseon court's scope. The north of the peninsula is sparsely settled, trade with China and Japan far outweighed any ventures to the south in returns on investments plus provided any resource needs for the kingdom, and prisoners could just be sent to one of Korea's myriad of islands.
The Phillipines or Formosa would be possible, especially if Ryukyu ends up Korean for whatever reason, but I don't know if they'd be sustainable in the long term. Eventually (unless butterflies mean that it itself is colonized) Japan will have every incentive to have a more powerful navy than Korea--essentially an England vs. France scenario. Thus, by alt-Meiji restoration, Korea's days will be numbered even if they also modernize.

And this, of course, assumes that the Portuguese or Dutch won't pick up the Philippines instead, which I think more likely than Korea since the former two had already demonstrated their ability to project power on the other side of the world.
Again, too far, too pricey, too low expectations for success by the court to push for it and not enough adventurous merchants willing to go for it rather than just trade with China and Japan. Ryukyu's a Ming/Qing tributary, which makes that a bit more difficult, and Formosa was under the rule of the Portuguese, Dutch, or Qing, none of which Joseon Korea could go against and win.

As for Japan, Japan's navy was only better than Korea's after the Meiji Restoration so not sure where the incentive you're referring to is.
True, but if Korea had a colonial empire, it would probably overtake Japan within a century or so, and with time might stop being subordinate to the Ming (this would only really happen if Korea would become a Great Power, since it would have no reason to become hostile to China atleast until the IR.) Do you think Japan would pursue overseas colonies if say, Korea had control of Formosa and the Philippines?

I'm thinking Korea would take it sometime around the 15th or 16th centuries, where the Netherlands didn't exist yet, and maybe a less expansionist Portugal, but making that happen is hard.
And again, colonial empires are expensive and often didn't give returns to justify the costs. Joseon Korea didn't have the desire to before the Imjin War and didn't have the funds to after it. And even if they did, what would come of it? The European colonial nations moved towards the world's biggest markets, India and China, for resources. Joseon Korea already is next to China, so expansion of trade's not something on most peoples' minds before the modern era.
 
Yeah, Hyojong had the plan but, by his reign, the Qing were already ascendant and fighting them after two previous losses, both within the last 30 years, would be poorly advised at best. In conjunction with the Revolt of the Three Feudatories, perhaps Joseon Korea could've seen some success but, again, the issue of actually holding the territory for long enough becomes and issue. Plus, Hyojong was long dead by that point and keeping a nation like Korea militarised would be difficult to maintain economically and socially.


Again, not really ever in the Joseon court's scope. The north of the peninsula is sparsely settled, trade with China and Japan far outweighed any ventures to the south in returns on investments plus provided any resource needs for the kingdom, and prisoners could just be sent to one of Korea's myriad of islands.

Again, too far, too pricey, too low expectations for success by the court to push for it and not enough adventurous merchants willing to go for it rather than just trade with China and Japan. Ryukyu's a Ming/Qing tributary, which makes that a bit more difficult, and Formosa was under the rule of the Portuguese, Dutch, or Qing, none of which Joseon Korea could go against and win.

As for Japan, Japan's navy was only better than Korea's after the Meiji Restoration so not sure where the incentive you're referring to is.

And again, colonial empires are expensive and often didn't give returns to justify the costs. Joseon Korea didn't have the desire to before the Imjin War and didn't have the funds to after it. And even if they did, what would come of it? The European colonial nations moved towards the world's biggest markets, India and China, for resources. Joseon Korea already is next to China, so expansion of trade's not something on most peoples' minds before the modern era.
Didn't Joseon (re)conquer Northeastern Korea from the Jurchens, though? What's to stop them from potentially taking more land, given competent leadership?
 
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