WI Enigma Uncracked

Churchill was ecstatic that Russia and later the USA entered the war so he could let them do the work.

Roosevelt was probably ecstatic as well, though for less publicised reasons.

From ‘Warlords, the heart of conflict 1939 – 1945’ by Simon Berthon and Joanna Potts.

Page 131

But as the war ground on, Churchill began to see a new threat to Europe – the man who had become the third ally in the fight against Hitler, Joseph Stalin. In late 1942 he told Anthony Eden: ‘It would be a measureless disaster if Russian barbarianism overlaid the ancient state of Europe.’

Roosevelt thought otherwise. As far as he was concerned, the cause of war in the first place was the in fighting between Europe’s ancient, imperialist nations and he began to see in Stalin someone who would help him in his great cause of freeing the world of that Imperialism. Also in 1942, in a conversation with the Roman Catholic Archbishop of New York, he remarked: ‘The European people will simply have to endure Russian domination in the hope that – in ten or 20 years – the European influence will bring the Russians to become less barbarous.’


This is taken from ‘The Roosevelt Letters: Being the Personnel Correspondence of Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Vol.3: 1928 – 1945.

Would have been interesting, had Roosevelt lived to see if he would have handed Europe to the Soviets.
 
Folk, you're ignoring 2 things. The Battle of the Atlantic would arguably have gone much worse. Even with the aid of Ultra, by early '43, U-boats were doing so much damage, the Brits seriously considered abandoning the convoy system:eek::eek: as ineffectual.:confused::( Yes, it's true DF & airborne radar would have remained major factors, as OTL, but a longer war gives Donitz time to introduce the Type XII,:cool: which can only induce coronaries in senior Admiralty & Coastal Command officers.:eek: Which is not to say it need have gone all bad; without Ultra, the greater threat might (finally!) have gotten Winston to tell Harris he's got to give up some of his toys to Coastal Command, which could base 3-4 squadrons of Stirlings or B-24s in Newfoundland & dramatically cut the losses from U-boats...

Then there's the biggie: if Germany wasn't defeated by 7/45 or so, perhaps sooner if there's acceleration due to how bleak things are looking, it's a given the Bomb would be used against Germany. Groves had no qualms, & the Jewish scientists didn't. Is Dresden a radioactive parking lot TTL? Cologne? Essen (which got bombed more times than any other city in Germany)? Schweinfurt? How many nukes does it take before the von Stauffenberg crowd find their *ahem* guts & try killing Hitler (presuming they haven't yet, since the war's going better)? Do they succeed? And does this lead to German civil war (as I've read it might have)? If so, can the SU exploit it before the Allies are able to reach Germany?
 
WI the Allies are unable to crack the German codes, known as Enigma, during WWII?

Then the Finnish Radio Intelligence will replace Bletchley Park as the foremost example of codebreaking successes during WWII.

Seriously. During the war the Finnish army intelligence cracked a huge number of Soviet codes, on all levels, on several occasions stumping the Germans with their superior knowledge and gaining access to top German equipment on direct orders by Hitler, even before the German intelligence had the same. Led by Reino Hallamaa, the organization also cracked the codes of several other combatants, including the US top secret "Strip-code" in Spring 1942. Soviet codes were cracked in co-operation with the Japanese. Finnish intelligence listened, frex, on the Allied messages about the Tehran conference and provided to the Germans the information they needed to intercept convoy PQ18 enroute to Murmansk. The massive Soviet attack at the Karelian Isthmus in Summer 1944 was stopped with the Radio Intelligence providing exact information about the plans and orders of the attacking Red Army formations.

In Autumn 1944, the Finnish intelligence archives were evacuated to Sweden in "Operation Stella Polaris", and a big part of the material contained in 350 chests ended up being sold to various foreign intelligence services, including the Japanese, the Swedish, and the American OSS. In US hands, a chunk of this information material become part of the top secret Venona archives, and certainly had a important impact in the development of Western intelligence in the early part of the Cold War. Not least because the Red Army and Navy continued to use many of the same codes even after 1945.:rolleyes:
 
And Sweden read USSRs army and navy codes, Germanys diplomatic and army codes, Italys diplomatic codes, Great Brittains navy codes an the US navy code in 1941. But Swedish intelligence didn't bothered with the Japanese codes.

I think that it was time for the code breakers to catch up with the machine codes. Poland broke the Enigma, the US the Japanese codes, UK managed to break the more difficult naval enigma, Arne Beurling even broke the G-writer code in two weeks.

The problem seems to be that they where overrated leading to mismanagement (that was how Sweden and Poland broke them) or had a flaw (as the Japanese).
 
there's a senario like this in Robert Cowley's 'What if?'
it ends with Berlin being Nuked in 1945.
abit on the extreme side, because the senario portrayed the Allies as bumbling Idiots, and the Germans as milltery geniouses.
 
Folk, you're ignoring 2 things. The Battle of the Atlantic would arguably have gone much worse. Even with the aid of Ultra, by early '43, U-boats were doing so much damage, the Brits seriously considered abandoning the convoy system:eek::eek: as ineffectual.:confused::( Yes, it's true DF & airborne radar would have remained major factors, as OTL, but a longer war gives Donitz time to introduce the Type XII,:cool: which can only induce coronaries in senior Admiralty & Coastal Command officers.:eek: Which is not to say it need have gone all bad; without Ultra, the greater threat might (finally!) have gotten Winston to tell Harris he's got to give up some of his toys to Coastal Command, which could base 3-4 squadrons of Stirlings or B-24s in Newfoundland & dramatically cut the losses from U-boats...

Then there's the biggie: if Germany wasn't defeated by 7/45 or so, perhaps sooner if there's acceleration due to how bleak things are looking, it's a given the Bomb would be used against Germany. Groves had no qualms, & the Jewish scientists didn't. Is Dresden a radioactive parking lot TTL? Cologne? Essen (which got bombed more times than any other city in Germany)? Schweinfurt? How many nukes does it take before the von Stauffenberg crowd find their *ahem* guts & try killing Hitler (presuming they haven't yet, since the war's going better)? Do they succeed? And does this lead to German civil war (as I've read it might have)? If so, can the SU exploit it before the Allies are able to reach Germany?
DUDE, What The Hell is with you and The World War II Thread Necromancy ...

This is The Second One from June you've Revived Today ...

Seriously, Why don't you Just Come up with Ideas of your Own?

:mad:
 
DUDE, What The Hell is with you and The World War II Thread Necromancy ...

This is The Second One from June you've Revived Today ...

Seriously, Why don't you Just Come up with Ideas of your Own?

:mad:

Er, man, there's nothing wrong with necromancy, if it's a good idea and you've got something to contribute...
 
Er, man, there's nothing wrong with necromancy, if it's a good idea and you've got something to contribute...
That's just it ...

These Threads are from 6 Months ago, And All Pacific Historian Adds are Pithy Rejoinders to Discussions that Died Months Ago ...

Again, I Ask WHY?

:eek:
 
That's just it ...

These Threads are from 6 Months ago, And All Pacific Historian Adds are Pithy Rejoinders to Discussions that Died Months Ago ...

Again, I Ask WHY?

:eek:

But wait, if these were all six/seven months old - maybe later we'll have post to threads five months, then four months - then ......... !!!!
 
They may be 6mo old to you, they're brand new to me. And I'll bet they're brand new to quite a few noobs, too. If I see a mistake, I'm not going to let it lie, 'cause somebody else might find comment or clarification useful. Get over it.
 
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