WI: Enguerrand VII de Coucy Has A Son?

Kellan Sullivan

This is inspired by an old thread of @Valena's, as well as @Zulfurium's HYW TL and reading Barbara Tuchman's A Distant Mirror.

Enguerrand VII was the last Sieur de Coucy (the last remaining Lordship in France - the Sieurs de Coucy refused to allow themselves to be elevated to the status of dukes or counts because in their view, the title of "Lord"/"Sieur" was grand enough). He married twice, first to Isabella of Woodstock, eldest daughter of Edward III, by whom he had two daughters; and then remarried to a princess of Lorraine in hopes of securing an heir. Unfortunately, he died without that happening, since all wife no. 2 gave him was another daughter.

This was followed by a fight over the Coucy inheritance between his elder daughter (who was married to the heir to the duchy of Bar) by the English wife; and his widow and her daughter. These squabbles led to the disintegration of the estates which Enguerrand (a talented soldier and diplomat) had built up, as territory was seized by the duke of Burgundy (in right of Enguerrand's youngest daughter marrying the comte de Nevers), the dukes of Austria (IIRC it was in the Sundgau), and the king of France.

What would have happened if Enguerrand (Ingleram in England, where he was Earl of Bedford) had had a son to transmit these domains to?
 

VVD0D95

Banned
I think it depends from which wife the son is born. If it's the first, then I think the English are going to try and cultivate him as an ally against the French, if it's the second then I could see the French trying to cultivate him as an ally, simply because he's not got that English connection.
 
The Professor

The Professor

VVD0D95 said:
I think it depends from which wife the son is born. If it's the first, then I think the English are going to try and cultivate him as an ally against the French, if it's the second then I could see the French trying to cultivate him as an ally, simply because he's not got that English connection.
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Tbh I think it'll happen regardless of which wife.
Will this son be Count of Soissons?
Could this son request the Bedford title be recreated?
Could both be possible?
Could
 

Kellan Sullivan

VVD0D95 said:
I think it depends from which wife the son is born. If it's the first, then I think the English are going to try and cultivate him as an ally against the French, if it's the second then I could see the French trying to cultivate him as an ally, simply because he's not got that English connection.
Click to expand...

Considering that Enguerrand split the inheritance between his two daughters by Isabella, Marie was to get the French lands, Philippa the English lands, I could see him doing something similar.
Yes, a son would be entitled to ALL of it, but I could half see Enguerrand striking a similar deal here.

The Professor said:
Tbh I think it'll happen regardless of which wife.
Will this son be Count of Soissons?
Could this son request the Bedford title be recreated?
Could both be possible?
Could
Click to expand...

His son COULD but if he pulls a comte de Penthièvre, comte d'Eu (Robert d'Artois was earl of Richmond), comte de Foix (who was earl of Kendal but opted for French citizenship) or the duke of Jülich (who was created earl of Cambridge in 1340), the title might not be transferrable, since neither Jean d'Artois, comte d'Eu nor Gerhard/Wilhelm II of Jülich held their father's English titles.
 

Kellan Sullivan

Found out today that Enguerrand VII had a bastard son, named Perceval (later Sieur d'Aubermont) in 1386. Perceval died in 1437, and there seems to have been neither wife nor child.

But say the genders of Enguerrand's daughter, Isabeau (Countess of Rethel) and Perceval (both born in 1386) are swapped around.

How would Enguerrand VIII (1386-1437) affect things? No dispute over the Coucy inheritance between his mom and half-sister here. Instead, Marie would get only what was entailed to her by the agreement between their father and the French crown when his first wife died.
 

Kellan Sullivan

A slightly earlier change that could accompany Enguerrand having a son. His widow's future. Especially if the boy is still a minor when dad dies.

OTL Isabelle de Lorraine, dame douarière de Coucy was fighting for a daughter and wanted influence to battle it out in the courts against the king of England's cousin (Marie de Coucy). There were several suggestions of remarriage to players at the French court (Ludwig of Bavaria-Ingolstadt, brother of Queen Isabeau, as well as Isabeau's widowed father and Pedro of Navarre, comte de Mortain).

While the inheritance is unlikely to be dragged through the courts here, there still WILL be a sizeable inheritance to administer. Not to mention Coucy's connections to England, the Low Countries, Naples would make a marriage to his widow more appealing, if only for the wardship of young Enguerrand VIII.

Thoughts?
 

Kellan Sullivan

VVD0D95 said:
I think it depends from which wife the son is born. If it's the first, then I think the English are going to try and cultivate him as an ally against the French, if it's the second then I could see the French trying to cultivate him as an ally, simply because he's not got that English connection.
Click to expand...
What if Enguerrand and Isabella of Woodstock had a son in 1371? No particular reason for picking the date beyond that it's when Enguerrand's supposed bastard, Lancelot de Coucy-Guînes (who died fighting at Azincour) was born. But AIUI, the "division" of properties (French lands to Marie, English ones to Philippa) had already taken place, since this was the year that Philippa's contract to Oxford was finalized.

Any thoughts?
 

VVD0D95

Banned
Kellan Sullivan said:
What if Enguerrand and Isabella of Woodstock had a son in 1371? No particular reason for picking the date beyond that it's when Enguerrand's supposed bastard, Lancelot de Coucy-Guînes (who died fighting at Azincour) was born. But AIUI, the "division" of properties (French lands to Marie, English ones to Philippa) had already taken place, since this was the year that Philippa's contract to Oxford was finalized.

Any thoughts?
Click to expand...
Hmm, could they not hold off on finalising things or look to change things when the son is born?
 

Kellan Sullivan

VVD0D95 said:
Hmm, could they not hold off on finalising things or look to change things when the son is born?
Click to expand...
Why can I see Oxford breaking that betrothal if that happens? After all, if the whole motivation was for the lands that Philippa stood to inherit, that reason is now (potentially) a non-starter.
 
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