WI: English Victory in the 2nd Anglo-Dutch war?
- Thread starter Emperor Constantine
- Start date
A few radicals. At most I think the Spanish would want to take Breda, a few other border cities and reopen the Scheldt for the Port of Antwerp. Oh and if possible weaken the Dutch colonial empire.
Another thought. With The Dutch East India company heading towards bankruptcy, could another nation swoop in on the highly profitable Japanese trade? Perhaps either England, Spain or Portugal (I think those are the only countries in the East at this point)?
The Spanish at this time were much more scared of the French, who were nibbling away at the southern parts of the Spanish Netherlands (War of Devolution during this same time for example).
They needed Dutch support against France way too much to contamplate actually turning their army north.
As for the bishop of Munster, he was always willing to invade the Netherlands, to reintegrate parts of the northern Netherlands back under his bishophric.
Provided he was paid of course.
As he was in both 1665 (by England, which was notoriously short of money so the 'invasion' quickly turned into a fiasco) and 1672 (by France, which could pay much more, but after the failure of the siege of Groningen he also had to retreat).
To Spain, not necessarily. The War of Devolution didn't start until 1667, so there was a small window of opportunity. And Dutch support would be traded for English support at this point.
HJ Tulp
Donor
Any source? I'm fairly sure that Dutch vessels were forbidden from impressing which caused pretty problematic manpower shortages from time to time.
Another question for those who know about the dutch. According to the Wikipedia page on the battle of Vagen, the Dutch east India company sent a fleet containing rich cargo twice a year to the Netherlands from the East Indies. Does anyone know if these Fleets continued to be sent during the Second Dutch war (besides the one nearly captured at Vagen I mean), and if so when they were normally sent out? I need it for my TL.
HJ Tulp
Donor
Basically yes but as far as I know they stalled or waited in friendly ports whenever the enemy had control of the sea. If they could be warned in due time ofcourse. Otherwise it was usually a reason to go out and challenge the enemy even if the odds were unfavourable (ofcourse not in all cases).
So is there a possibility of the next Spice fleet being intercepted by the English? I would like to use the capture of the Spice fleet as a final nail in the dutch coffin and didn't want to have to use a 1665 POD (England capturing the Fleet at Vagen).
Emperor Constantine - Firstly sounds like an interesting timeline. I'd be interested in reading that when its ready. Should be interesting to see the descendents of Charles II ruling Britain...
At the risk of going off topic, I was wondering if you could recommend much in the way of sources for that time period. I've got a smattering of books of the time but they're mostly concentrated on British history and often tend to be vague. I've got a POD during the English Civil War but the butterflies don't really kick in until long after.
Anything you could recommend would be appreciated. Sorry for the distraction.
At the risk of going off topic, I was wondering if you could recommend much in the way of sources for that time period. I've got a smattering of books of the time but they're mostly concentrated on British history and often tend to be vague. I've got a POD during the English Civil War but the butterflies don't really kick in until long after.
Anything you could recommend would be appreciated. Sorry for the distraction.
Oh its fine I'm always happy to recommend books. Really it depends on what area you need help on. For instance, I'm mainly using the Antonia Fraser biographies on Charles II and Louis XIV, and for government,Restoration: Charles II and his Kingdoms by Tim Harris. For general period sources, I'll have to look around.
OTL both Dutch and English (and IIRC Swedish + maybe more) support to Spain was required to get Louis XIV to back of from its landgrab.
That was part of the reason behind the Raid on the Medway: get the war over quickly by forcing a major English defeat, so Dutch attention could be focussed on France. Preferably with help of England, if possible.
And Spain would be quite stupid to exchange Dutch support (who had a major stake in the status of the Spanish Netherlands, being a neighbour and all) for English support. At the least the Dutch always had an army on the right side of the Pas de Calais.
And as was just demonstrated by their attacks on Dutch posessions overseas, English aspirations in the New World were not to be trusted. Spain with its own colonies and trading posts would think twice before allying with Perfidious Albion!
That cuts both ways. You're talking about a date within living memory of the Amboyna Massacre, after all...
Thank you. Basically its a Lord Protector TL, though with a unique POD during the Civil War. The Civil Wars themselves continue without much difference, however it butterflies into a change of succession on Cromwell's death. The way things are going its looking like a Forth Civil War (thus I'm trying to find numbers for how many soldiers would be active at any given time), and probably a continuation of the Spanish War (and I'm looking at the viability of a Portugese-English alliance against Spain.
Problem is Portugal still recognises Charles II as King. It has done deals with the Commonwealth though. One big question is if it would be prepared to sell Charles II out for support against the Spanish, or if they'd continue to fight on alone. Since the English deployed 3,000 Veterans to Flanders I see them deploying a larger force into Portugal though possibly with the restraint of 'protecting Portugal's independence' and prevented from using Portugal as a staging ground for a full scale invasion. However numbers again would be a factor).
Plus I still have no idea how I'm going to deal with the Dutch problem. Still very much a work in progress but any relevant books/texts will help refine exactly what happens. The pieces I've found so far tend to lack the fine mechanic details, more referring to common well recorded events and conjecture about states of mind. The Louis XIV book sounds good though, it will help plot France's decision making (though I suspect it will be very similar to OTL given how England will be more fixated on finishing the Spanish war. With the Treaty of the Pyrennes France is doing rather well and Louis XIV will probably be happy to let England and Spain slug it out). Worth a read though.
Another book that you might be interested in is Ungrateful Daughters by Maureen Waller. Now its not directly on the subject you looking for (in fact it is mainly about Mary II and Queen Anne) but it has a great section on William III, covering his childhood and a bit of the internal issues plaguing the Republic during the First Stadtholderless era. But if your looking for things on the Civil war and Cromwellian succession, I might suggest a POD with a better heir for Cromwell. Richard had no support base. Maybe one of his sons-in-law?
There's a difference between a coordinated attack on colonial positions all over the globe and what was in essence no more than a local dispute between two commercial enterprises.
Anyway, calling it a massacre is just English propaganda. All persons were prosecuted according to what was than the law. About half of the accused English were actually condemned and also people emplyed by the VOC were exectued.
Thank you, I will look into that. With no Restoration the Act of Succession regarding William III is likely to have a big impact one way or another.
Yes, I've found a suitable heir for Cromwell that isn't Richard, but its not an obvious one either. Its a small piece of history that many would miss because it seems insignificant but it radically changes things upon Cromwell's death. Sorry for being vague but I intend it to be a surprise unveiled at the end of the Prologue. Said person has a strong military backing and as a result comes to blows with the Republican element.
So the POD is Richard Cromwell KIA and Cromwell's son-in-law (I forget his name frequently, but that's the relationship degree) becoming the new Lord Protector? Cool thing, I'm looking forward for this.
Close but not quite! Richard is still very much alive (although still as naive as OTL). And I will say its not someone who would be considered by most people OTL (trust me, I know it sounds bizarre but it'll all make sense after the Prologue
).Parliamentarian veterans deployed into a RC country? Expect a worsening of relations when they start despoiling the local churches...