WI: English France from 1422

With a PoD where Henry V of England lives until the 1440s and his successors keep hold of France, how could events turn out? How might French politics, economy and society develop, in union with England? Potential effects on Scotland and Ireland?
In what ways could this shake up the course of world history?
 
France and England ITTL are still separate kingdoms, just ruled by the same monarch. The laws of one do not apply to the other. That said, having the same monarch probably means they would follow a similar foreign policy, and assuming the Reformation still happens, they will probably be of the same faith.
 
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France and England ITTL are still separate kingdoms, just ruled by the same monarch. The laws of one do not apply to the other. That said, having the same monarch probably means they would follow a similar foreign policy, and assuming the Reformation still happens, they will probably be of the same faith.

Well, as far as the same monarch is involved, Henry V controlled only a northern France and him being a king goes against the Salic Law so there could be challenges during and after his life. Plus most of the French already disliked the English which could create additional tensions along the road. I'd say that as long as there is a weak monarch the union is going to break.
 
Well, as far as the same monarch is involved, Henry V controlled only a northern France and him being a king goes against the Salic Law so there could be challenges during and after his life. Plus most of the French already disliked the English which could create additional tensions along the road. I'd say that as long as there is a weak monarch the union is going to break.

Sure, I don't think a union of the crowns was likely to last long. But this TL would presume it does.
 
Sure, I don't think a union of the crowns was likely to last long. But this TL would presume it does.

AFAIK, the only justification for Henry being acknowledged was a brutal force (king of France was known to be insane): he was married to King’s daughter (nice of him but nobody abolished Salic Law so neither he nor his descendants would stay up to a legal challenge) and supported by the Burgundian faction just because they hated Orleans/Armagniacs who supported the Dauphin and theBurgundians were popular in Paris. None of these factors would last forever and in England an idea that the war has to be paid for by the French was getting more and more traction which means that on one hand funds for raising armies in England would become less and less available and OTOH that the French dislike of the English would keep growing. The union would remain a shotgun marriage and sooner rather than later rulers of Burgundy (if Dauphin is dead) would make their claim to the throne or support someone who would not be a danger to their power.
 
AFAIK, the only justification for Henry being acknowledged was a brutal force (king of France was known to be insane): he was married to King’s daughter (nice of him but nobody abolished Salic Law so neither he nor his descendants would stay up to a legal challenge) and supported by the Burgundian faction just because they hated Orleans/Armagniacs who supported the Dauphin and theBurgundians were popular in Paris. None of these factors would last forever and in England an idea that the war has to be paid for by the French was getting more and more traction which means that on one hand funds for raising armies in England would become less and less available and OTOH that the French dislike of the English would keep growing. The union would remain a shotgun marriage and sooner rather than later rulers of Burgundy (if Dauphin is dead) would make their claim to the throne or support someone who would not be a danger to their power.
And even if the pseudoSalic law was dropped in a couple of generations English nobles will see the King as French and prefer one of their own who doesn't automatically "enrich the French at their expense".
To me the union feels destined to break on one side or the other. I could even see a two way civil war developing.
 
The only way the Plantagenêt claim to the French throne is worth more than the paper it's written on is using a massive application of brute force.
Depending on the succession law applied, the legitimate claimants to the French throne at the era are either the Dauphin (OTL Charles VI) via pure agnatic primogeniture, Charles III of Navarra via agnatic-cognatic succession from Louis X's daughter (presumed a bastard), or Philip III of Burgundy via agnatic-cognatic succession from Philippe V's daughters (definitely not bastards).
 
So, it looks like we'd have wars in France between rival factions for years to come. Say the English win and secure their rule, how would this affect the rest of Europe?
 
And even if the pseudoSalic law was dropped in a couple of generations English nobles will see the King as French and prefer one of their own who doesn't automatically "enrich the French at their expense".
To me the union feels destined to break on one side or the other. I could even see a two way civil war developing.

Indeed. Besides, as the French part of the equation, even with the Salic Law shrugged off, combination is still not too good: father is an Englishman and mother is a daughter of a woman of a questionable morale: IIRC, there were rumors that Dauphin is not a son of the King of France so who would vouch for legitimacy of his mother's daughter? Plus, the King being insane, any of his decisions could be made null and void by Parliament of Paris, Estates General or any other authoritative entity. And why the English would blame him for looking for the French interests, the French would be accusing him in looting them for the benefit of England, especially if there are some English appointees in France. Taking into an account that both countries were not in a good economic shape thanks to the war, it is a matter of "when it happens" rather than "if it happens".

And when it starts happening the Burgundian faction is in a very good position to came with its own kind who has better rights to the throne, possesses a considerable military power and very popular in the Northern France including Paris.
 
So, it looks like we'd have wars in France between rival factions for years to come. Say the English win and secure their rule, how would this affect the rest of Europe?

In OTL the wars between the rival parties in France already had been going on so nothing new there. As for the English ultimate win, I would not bet on it by 3 main reasons:

1st, England was reluctant to spend money on the war in France and an idea of the war supporting itself was not working. In OTL, at the peak of the English successes Daupin (not to mention the rest of his party) had an income which was few times greater than what the English could squeeze out of the French territories they hold. And without money perspectives for raising the new armies were not good (as in OTL).

2nd, while war between the parties made Dauphin and his supporters unpopular in the Northern France, the English were not popular either (why would they with their habit of looting and burning). And while the Burgundian faction was popular, as the OTL demonstrated, its loyalty to the English cause could not be taken for granted.

3rd, tactical advantages of the English military system had been gradually going away when the French started figuring out how to use the firearms. System of gaining by taking the pieces of territory rather than by the risky big battles was working even before.
 
Is Joan of Arc butterflied away altogether in
TTL? Or are we assuming Henry defeats her
in battle & then does the you-know-what-@-
the-stake to her?
 
The only way the Plantagenêt claim to the French throne is worth more than the paper it's written on is using a massive application of brute force.
Depending on the succession law applied, the legitimate claimants to the French throne at the era are either the Dauphin (OTL Charles VI) via pure agnatic primogeniture, Charles III of Navarra via agnatic-cognatic succession from Louis X's daughter (presumed a bastard), or Philip III of Burgundy via agnatic-cognatic succession from Philippe V's daughters (definitely not bastards).
When Edward III claimed the French crown none of his cousins had sons (who would have a better claim than his as male heir of Philip IV) and his justification of his claim (women were unable to inheriting but were able to transmit rights to their sons) was pretty good (and would have some chances to receive the crown if he was not an Englishman)
 
With a PoD where Henry V of England lives until the 1440s and his successors keep hold of France, how could events turn out? How might French politics, economy and society develop, in union with England? Potential effects on Scotland and Ireland?
In what ways could this shake up the course of world history?

I expect that, assuming this union lasts and works tolerably well, England would be in the same situation Scotland was after OTL's Union of the Crowns: although the royal family would be of English descent, they'd spend most of their time in France (the bigger and wealthier realm), and after a couple of generations would be pretty thoroughly Gallicised.
 
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