WI: England wins the battle of Bannockburn

Ryan

Donor
what would have happened if England won the battle of Bannockburn in 1314? what if Robert Bruce was killed during the battle too?
 

Redhand

Banned
We don't have such ridiculous controversy about the date of Scottish Independence referendums.
 

Teejay

Gone Fishin'
what would have happened if England won the battle of Bannockburn in 1314? what if Robert Bruce was killed during the battle too?

Well with the death of Robert the Bruce, it is likely that the English would re-conqueror Scotland and either Edward II crowns himself King of Scotland or places Edward Balliol as his vassal.

The latter of Scotland becoming an English vassal state seems the likely outcome. Eventually Scotland (especially the Lowlands) gets more fully integrated into England.
 
Well with the death of Robert the Bruce, it is likely that the English would re-conqueror Scotland and either Edward II crowns himself King of Scotland or places Edward Balliol as his vassal.
Edward II was not the man his father was and thanks to his favourites he would not have the money to pay for the supercastles that the English would require to hold Scotland. England would not have held Wales so easily without the Edwardian castles. If the English do win Bannockburn my money would be a Bruce biding his time until Scotland could make a comeback. Between an inevitable civil war and a lack of supercastles an opportunity would come.

The latter of Scotland becoming an English vassal state seems the likely outcome. Eventually Scotland (especially the Lowlands) gets more fully integrated into England.
The English/Scottish border was a moveable feast with virtually the same sort of brigand living either side. For greater integration either way lords owing fealty to the king will have to be given lands. The danger is that a family such as the Percies get the lion's share and thus a threat to the King of England.
 

Redhand

Banned
Edward II was not the man his father was and thanks to his favourites he would not have the money to pay for the supercastles that the English would require to hold Scotland. England would not have held Wales so easily without the Edwardian castles. If the English do win Bannockburn my money would be a Bruce biding his time until Scotland could make a comeback. Between an inevitable civil war and a lack of supercastles an opportunity would come.


The English/Scottish border was a moveable feast with virtually the same sort of brigand living either side. For greater integration either way lords owing fealty to the king will have to be given lands. The danger is that a family such as the Percies get the lion's share and thus a threat to the King of England.

This is of course assuming that Bruce isn't offed by his own nobles for failing to win at Bannockburn. Or that he doesn't die in battle. In that case, many of the nobles of Scotland would go over to Edward (things like nationalism weren't really big at this point, regardless of what Mel Gibson has to say on the matter), and Scotland could have been subjugated for the most part, but full control would not come until Edward II is gone. Scotland would be a mess for quite some time.
 

Teejay

Gone Fishin'
Edward II was not the man his father was and thanks to his favourites he would not have the money to pay for the supercastles that the English would require to hold Scotland. England would not have held Wales so easily without the Edwardian castles. If the English do win Bannockburn my money would be a Bruce biding his time until Scotland could make a comeback. Between an inevitable civil war and a lack of supercastles an opportunity would come.

That would rule out direct English control, however I can still see Scotland becoming an English vassal state under the rule of the Balliol dynasty.
 
That would rule out direct English control, however I can still see Scotland becoming an English vassal state under the rule of the Balliol dynasty.
That would work right up to the point that the Despenser family decided that they wanted a slice of Scotland to add to their English holdings. Balliol could surrender some, but yoy can be absolutely sure that the Bruce family would be proposing stand and fight. If any of them backed Lancaster and company Edward II could very well be dethroned earlier and Scotland gain its independence just a little later than on OTL.
 

Redhand

Banned
That would rule out direct English control, however I can still see Scotland becoming an English vassal state under the rule of the Balliol dynasty.

A lasting Balliol dynasty is dependent on English support and England being strong. The quicker Edward II is gone, the better. If he dies early and is replaced by a regency council dominated by Isabella, this could work just fine. Edward III was no slouch and could handle vassal Scotland. Eventually, a unification would happen. If Edward lasts long enough to screw things up, than Balliol is replaced and Scotland will once again descend into civil war. The only way England could lose is if they allow one faction to become too powerful. The weaker everyone is, the better for their long term prospects.
 
The only way England could lose is if they allow one faction to become too powerful.
Not quite. It also needs to be able to fund field armies and maintain garrisons to hold territory. Wars in France and revolts in Wales divert effort from Scotland. That was why Edward I was unable to finish the job off.

Edward III has a choice. He can conquer Scotland or bid for the crown of France. On OTL he tried for the latter and almost succeeded. On a different TL he could follow in his grandfather's footsteps. What he does not have is the gold to do both.
 
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