WI : England rediscovers the New World

So in a TL where Columbus and Spain don't explore westwards (or doesn't survivie the trip), what if English Explorers make the trip instead, perhaps an eccentric following the old Norse Sagas.

Assuming they succeed, and England uses this to secretly set up a trade network in the New World, with small trade posts for importing Tobacco, and as they move further south, Sugar - what are the likely effects if England is the sole European player in the New World for 130 years, after which the discovery is out of the bag, and other European powers make expeditions.
 
With England it would have been Cabot discovering Newfoundland vs Columbus in the Caribbean.

That would have changed the outlook for what the New World had to offer Europe.
 
Butterflies, especially regarding Spanish conquest of the pre-Columbian empires but Spain and Portugal are still in a much better position to exploit the situation than the English. I'd expect Spain to pile in pretty quickly to exploration and colonizing.

Keeping it secret for more than a handful of years is ASB. The best they can hope for is ambivalence from Spain and Portugal but that's only going to last until somebody notices there's money to be made.
 
With England it would have been Cabot discovering Newfoundland vs Columbus in the Caribbean.

That would have changed the outlook for what the New World had to offer Europe.

Aye, less "Warm, tropical, exotic, party!" more, "More England..."

Butterflies, especially regarding Spanish conquest of the pre-Columbian empires but Spain and Portugal are still in a much better position to exploit the situation than the English. I'd expect Spain to pile in pretty quickly to exploration and colonizing.

Keeping it secret for more than a handful of years is ASB. The best they can hope for is ambivalence from Spain and Portugal but that's only going to last until somebody notices there's money to be made.

Perhaps that ambivalence leads to the English having a strong foothold that puts them in a better position? Settlements in North America can facilitate action more rapidly, and England therefore has the infrastructure to expand more readily when the discovery of the Caribbean and Mesoamerica come into wider knowledge. Heck, considering the route, that infrastructure might be quite effective at building a "Thulian" Navy.

A different diversion of the Treaty of Tordesillas perhaps?

"Spain gets the South, England gets the North, Portugal Gets the East"? It'd be interesting to see Portugal be given "The East", casually, ignoring the whole "India, China, etc" - leaves Spain and England in the position of "If I go east I break the treaty". A Portuguese India is an interesting butterfly :p
 
There's no way to keep it a secret, especially not if they come across any European fisherman on one of their trips back and forth. Which is almost guaranteed given the route the English would need to take. It took a very short time for Europe to hear about the Americas.
 
Butterflies, especially regarding Spanish conquest of the pre-Columbian empires but Spain and Portugal are still in a much better position to exploit the situation than the English. I'd expect Spain to pile in pretty quickly to exploration and colonizing.

Keeping it secret for more than a handful of years is ASB. The best they can hope for is ambivalence from Spain and Portugal but that's only going to last until somebody notices there's money to be made.

It could take a couple of decades before they come across the Aztecs and the Incas. They spend plenty of time on the eastern North America coast.
 
As soon as the English come back and declare they have found something, you have Portuguese explorer conveniently landing in Brazil and countries around it, as Cabral did in 1500, as soon as they made sure the road to India was open and safe.

At this point, Portugal is RICH and very advanced militarily, technologically and economically speaking.
You'd have Portuguese ships going up and down the coast, putting padrao wherever and advocating for respect of Tordesillas to the Pope.
Add to that, England is not that powerful at that time, it might not be able to resist the Portuguese navy
 
If they go the route of the alleged whalers and fishermen, or follow the sagas of old Vinland, then what they`ll hit first is OTL´s Newfoundland. That`s not just "more England", it´s more like "more Scotland" or "more Shetlands" or maybe even "more Faeroyer". Depending on which coast they sight from this island first - Westwards or Northwards, it´s either getting even worse, or it takes a bit until it gets at least England-like, climate-wise. Also, at first only foraging natives - and after a while, neolithic early agriculturalists, no metalworking, no gold, no silver.

I would say there`s a good chance the Kings of England formally claim the land, but nothing much follows from it for many decades. Maybe a permanent fishing village or three on Newfoundland.

Our conceptions of "America has been discovered!" and how everyone reacts to that are very much driven by what the Spaniards found in Mesomerica and later South America; heck, even in the Caribbean. All of this is far away from Newfoundland and won`t necessarily be sought with great confidence and enthusiasm. Why would it?
If all European kingdoms were so eager to explore what lay beyond yet another cold island, why weren`t they travelling along the Pomors` routes in the Arctic Sea Eastward? Nobody did that, not even the Muscovites/Russians who controlled it, for quite a while yet.
 
As soon as the English come back and declare they have found something, you have Portuguese explorer conveniently landing in Brazil and countries around it, as Cabral did in 1500, as soon as they made sure the road to India was open and safe.

At this point, Portugal is RICH and very advanced militarily, technologically and economically speaking.
You'd have Portuguese ships going up and down the coast, putting padrao wherever and advocating for respect of Tordesillas to the Pope.
Add to that, England is not that powerful at that time, it might not be able to resist the Portuguese navy

Weren't they allies at this point in time? All in all, it benefits both England and Portugal to work together, sort of a "Colonising Cartel".

If they go the route of the alleged whalers and fishermen, or follow the sagas of old Vinland, then what they`ll hit first is OTL´s Newfoundland. That`s not just "more England", it´s more like "more Scotland" or "more Shetlands" or maybe even "more Faeroyer". Depending on which coast they sight from this island first - Westwards or Northwards, it´s either getting even worse, or it takes a bit until it gets at least England-like, climate-wise. Also, at first only foraging natives - and after a while, neolithic early agriculturalists, no metalworking, no gold, no silver.

I would say there`s a good chance the Kings of England formally claim the land, but nothing much follows from it for many decades. Maybe a permanent fishing village or three on Newfoundland.

Our conceptions of "America has been discovered!" and how everyone reacts to that are very much driven by what the Spaniards found in Mesomerica and later South America; heck, even in the Caribbean. All of this is far away from Newfoundland and won`t necessarily be sought with great confidence and enthusiasm. Why would it?
If all European kingdoms were so eager to explore what lay beyond yet another cold island, why weren`t they travelling along the Pomors` routes in the Arctic Sea Eastward? Nobody did that, not even the Muscovites/Russians who controlled it, for quite a while yet.

Well, the way I see it is that whatever explorer finds Newfoundland again will want to make the money they wanted to make. Moreso than just commissions. I see that as going to find anything to trade, and any way to make money. Trading with the natives, importing a new source of fur, tobacco, etc. Essentially finding that justification to make Newfoundland more than just fishing villages, but also an important outfitting port, even if it isn't an exporter - but the "Gate" to the New World.

The idea of a Royal Atlantic Company doesn't seem entirely unlikely as a result. It may not be an East India Company, but as a method to make the Crown some extra money, it seems plausible, and it directly has the incentive to exploit its monopoly, and push further, and further, and further. (Heck, we could be talking about a John Smith, Atlantic Company Commander launching an invasion of the Aztecs).
 
Well, the way I see it is that whatever explorer finds Newfoundland again will want to make the money they wanted to make. Moreso than just commissions. I see that as going to find anything to trade, and any way to make money. Trading with the natives, importing a new source of fur, tobacco, etc. Essentially finding that justification to make Newfoundland more than just fishing villages, but also an important outfitting port, even if it isn't an exporter - but the "Gate" to the New World.
Tobacco is far away. Europeans don`t know it yet. I doubt that whoever hits Newfoundland expects something like that farther on. Fur trade with the Beothuk and maybe the Miqmaq, OK. From here to a RAC or an Aztec invasion it´s a damn long way, though.
 
Weren't they allies at this point in time? All in all, it benefits both England and Portugal to work together, sort of a "Colonising Cartel".
And risk England finding an alternative route to the Spice Islands? The Portuguese spent the last 80 years trying to get there after all.
Spain, there was not much that could be done about it due to Tordesillas (which interestingly, was renegotiated right after Colombus came back and very conveniently included the yet undiscovered Brasil, but England had no right to anything
 
Tobacco is far away. Europeans don`t know it yet. I doubt that whoever hits Newfoundland expects something like that farther on. Fur trade with the Beothuk and maybe the Miqmaq, OK. From here to a RAC or an Aztec invasion it´s a damn long way, though.

Oh, totally. I'm more illustrating that there is an incentive in place to explore further. Yeah, a full fledged RAC and Aztec invasion are a long way off. Though that depends on what the English learn from their trade partners. Considering IOTL the Europeans were mad about gold, I doubt that they wouldn't ask where they could find some.

Plus, it isn't like exploration after finding Newfoundland need be in small hops. Sure that'll be useful locally, but with Newfoundland found, and set up in any regard will likely be set up for resupply, and allow long distance travel down the coasts. Heck, it is a shorter voyage from Newfoundland to the Caribbean than Spain to the Caribbean. If they follow on journey is from there, it could be 2-5 years until the Caribbean is found, at which point England can suddenly go mental.

Tobacco and furs are the early concepts, its that incentive to find SOMETHING. Some way to China/India/Fortune that led to further exploration. I see no reason why you couldn't have at least 2 follow up journeys. One that goes north and to a dead end, and the other south, to the Caribbean, and the reason for an RAC.
 
And risk England finding an alternative route to the Spice Islands? The Portuguese spent the last 80 years trying to get there after all.
Spain, there was not much that could be done about it due to Tordesillas (which interestingly, was renegotiated right after Colombus came back and very conveniently included the yet undiscovered Brasil, but England had no right to anything
Tordesillas included Brazil due a miscalculation of Ferdinand that was obsessed in getting Melilla.The Portuguese were willing to take Isabel's proposal which would have given them nothing in the Americas
 
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Tordesillas included Brazil due a miscalculation of Ferdinand that was obsessed in getting Melilla.The Portuguese were willing to take Isabel's proposal which would have giving them nothing in the Americas

Good Lord that would be a buttefly. Portugal focuses on eastern trade and North Africa, Spain focuses on the New World. That Empire would be guargantuan!
 
To push my point just a little further:
Imagine the tough luck if they didn`t hit the shore in Newfoundland, but - storms and currents from Greenland are hard to navigate even when you know where you are - but much farther North, say around Killiniq, at the entrance to the Hudson Bay. They can get seal from there all right. Plenty of that. But if they take the wrong (i.e. Western) South-leading coastline into the Hudson Strait and then into the Hudson Bay, they can hug the coast for years and find nothing but barren arctic land.

I revise. They`d probably just die there. And then the next expedition hits upon Newfoundland. Still, I was just provoked by everyone`s argument that the Caribbean is not so far South from Newfoundland. Well, only if you know which way to head...
 
Tordesillas included Brazil due a miscalculation of Ferdinand that was obsessed in getting Melilla.The Portuguese were willing to take Isabel's proposal which would have giving them nothing in the Americas
Would you have a source? I find it an interesting bit of info that Tordesillas held for decades but was renegotiated in 1493.
In 1488, Bartolomé Dias had reached the Indian Ocean, it's possible that other expeditions after him hit Brasil. In 1492, Colombus reaches America and all of a sudden, the Portuguese want a renegotiation of the treaty, which pushes the line by 300 miles, covering Brasil. I find that a bit convenient
 
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