WI England had Civil War in 1045 AD?

King Thomas

Banned
What if England had gone into Civil War between King Edward the Confessor's forces and Earl Godwin's men? In OTL both sides were talked out of fighting by their own people, after Godwin refused to punish is own earldom for getting into a fight with some visiting Normans. But what if civil war had broken out then?
 
Edward the confessor would have made a lousy commander. I can't imagine him in the middle of a scildwall.
 
Edward the confessor would have made a lousy commander. I can't imagine him in the middle of a scildwall.

Well, much the same could be said of Louis the Pius, Frederick II or Saint Louis, and yet they did pretty much OK in military terms. He has his loyal men, so the real question will be: how many will be how loyal? How many enemies has Godwin made? And will Edward perchance call on help? IIRC Godwin's realtions with Scandinavia were so-so, but Edward was close with the duke of Normandy. Quite possibly we might see Norman knifghts called on to serve his. If he wins, England may be normanised in a very different way, much like Lowland Soctland was.
 
Well, much the same could be said of Louis the Pius, Frederick II or Saint Louis, and yet they did pretty much OK in military terms. He has his loyal men, so the real question will be: how many will be how loyal? How many enemies has Godwin made? And will Edward perchance call on help? IIRC Godwin's realtions with Scandinavia were so-so, but Edward was close with the duke of Normandy. Quite possibly we might see Norman knifghts called on to serve his. If he wins, England may be normanised in a very different way, much like Lowland Soctland was.
So might England, although not conquered by the Normans, still be somewhat culturally assimilated? That would be very interesting indeed, and worthy of a TL. A peaceful semi-Normanization, no Harrying, surviving Anglo-Saxons, etc.
 
Edward the confessor would have made a lousy commander. I can't imagine him in the middle of a scildwall.

Ah, so obviously anyone incapable of standing in a shieldwall would be absolutely hopeless as a military commander, and presumably similarly incompetent as a wartime king.

Firstly, I'd be interested in knowing on what grounds you regard Edward as militarily incompetent. Aside from anything else he was raised in Normandy, which suggests he had some proficiency with weapons.

Edward survived his father's disastrous reign, the Danish invasion, being raised in exile, dangerous missions for his father (many of his brothers did not) and from these origins led England out of the last Danish occupation and ruled successfully for two decades, his reign recalling the golden age of Edgar. This was not due to dumb luck; Edward was a majestic statesman and a consumate survivalist. His reputation as an out-of-touch, grey-bearded ascetic is the creation of a later age. Certainly he was pious, but he was also tough as leather.

In a war between Edward and Godwine, it could go either way, but I'm leaning towards Edward. Godwine might be very powerful, with a close hold on the old Kingdom of Wessex, but he also had a lot of enemies. Of the other earls, I think Siward would almost certainly stand behind Edward, and I think Leofric would too. Add the king's continental connections, and I think the Confessor has it.
 
So might England, although not conquered by the Normans, still be somewhat culturally assimilated? That would be very interesting indeed, and worthy of a TL. A peaceful semi-Normanization, no Harrying, surviving Anglo-Saxons, etc.
Under Edward the Normans were already culturally assimilating England. In fact the first castle was built in his reign (William's prefab was the second one). The locals though objected and ran the builders out.

On a general point If Edward invites Normans in to assist him and he defeats the Godwins what happens when he dies? The pro Godwin English are going to land on the Normans like a ton of bricks. That would favour William because he now has a stalking horse in place. On the other hand without the Godwin brothers in one place to kill, he could have a longer war on his hands.

If the Godwins win then you are going to have England for the English. Whilst it likely that you will get Lowland Scotland type assimilation, the process of Normanisation is going to take longer than it did on OTL.

In the long run it is not going to make very much different to English culture as everyone in Western Europe was going Norman to some degree. Short term, though: very different.
 
Well, if the Godwins were in exile, might not Edward name Edgar his heir ?
He could and in fact did on OTL. However, Edgar had no power base and thus could not stop Harold becoming king. Exiling the Godwins has little effect this as they have plenty of friends in England and no king can exile them all without winning a civil war.
 
He could and in fact did on OTL. However, Edgar had no power base and thus could not stop Harold becoming king. Exiling the Godwins has little effect this as they have plenty of friends in England and no king can exile them all without winning a civil war.

Which I thought WAS the POD here - that there was a civil war, that Edward won ? :confused:

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
Guys

I thought Godwine and his sons were actually exiled. The earls of Mercia and Northumbria supported the king when it looked like war would occur over the incident and Godwine realised he was outclassed. However the other earls then felt concerned about Edward's behaviour and their own position. Hence they supported Godwine when he returned from Ireland a year or so later and the king was forced to restore his lands.

Edward's pro-Norman tendencies were already causing concerns amongst the native English. There is the possibility that he calls on Norman support earlier, possibly offering the throne, which he had no right to do of course. Gets some Norman mercanaries arriving which both emboldens him and worries the other earls. As such Edward with Norman and loyalist support clashes with Godwine, with the other earls coming in against the Normans at a later stage.

Steve
 
Which I thought WAS the POD here - that there was a civil war, that Edward won ? :confused:

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
No, the PoD assumes that they don't/can't resolve the issue with talking and a civil war breaks out. On OTL they left quietly, but what might happen if they did not.

I certainly agree with postings that Edward would call upon Norman help if fighting broke out.
 
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