WI: Empress Helene d'Orleans of Russia, wife of Nicholas II?

I believe things are bound to come to a head with Japan, a new Empress will undoubtedly cause butterflies in Russia but if Russia isn't the chief instigator of a *Russo-Japanese War, Japan will be. That being said if Helene d'Orleans persuades Nicholas to keep the *1905 Duma then we're cooking with gas, however if WW1 progresses the way it does in OTL I dont think roughly a decade of slightly non-autocratic rule will prevent revolutionary fervor (I don't believe a late 19th centuery POD will prevent general European war of some kind). Yet if if Helene again persuades Nicholas to cut his losses and give up the war half way through before the nation goes revolutionary then we might see some real constitutionalism... maybe.
 
I believe things are bound to come to a head with Japan, a new Empress will undoubtedly cause butterflies in Russia but if Russia isn't the chief instigator of a *Russo-Japanese War Japan will be. That being said if Helene d'Orleans persuades Nicholas to keep the *1905 Duma then we're cooking with gas. However if WW1 progresses the way it does I dont think nine years of slightly non-autocratic monarchy will prevent the downfall of Imperial Russia, that being said if Helene persuades Nicholas to cut his losses and give up the war half way through before the nation goes revolutionary then we might see some real constitutionalism... maybe.

IDK about Japan. Things there was bound to come to a head and the war will probably be lost. Also Japan was the aggressor in that war, not Russia.

If the 1905 revolution still occurs, which is very likely, then I can see Helene persuading Nicholas to let the Duma stay in power. Maybe she could make the comparison to the French Revolution and ask him to take steps to avoid it. Really without Alexandra to constantly reenforce his decisions then maybe he won't make so many bad decisions. Remember Nicholas II was notorious for having no backbone, just look at how little control he had over the Imperial Family. Without Alexandra there to act as a backbone then a more liberal wife just might make him bow down and support the constitution.
 
Well if she was being seriously considered by Alexander III and Marie Feodorovna then the Comte de Paris would have no doubt have been consulted. I can't imagine that the Emperor and Empress would do all that work, convincing Nicholas to marry Helene only for it to fall thew because of religion. Remember that Russia and France were very close ally's at the time so perhaps the Comte would see the benefits of such a marriage, especially if the French Republic unofficially supported the match. Maybe a deal, with Helene marrying Nicholas and the French revoking the Royal exile law?

Yes, he would've been consulted. Mostly because royal marriages were more political than anything and despite the House of Orléans having been off the throne since 1848, they were still royalty. That is the big thing to keep in mind: just because they formally occupied the French throne doesn't mean such a marriage would improve relations with France. The Orléanists lived in England, and I daresay the French Republic would probably not care at all. There was a flush of royalist sentiment following the collapse of Napoleon III, but it quickly turned to Republicanism when the Comte de Chambord remained intransigent over the flag.

Helene's father could probably see the benefit to such a match, but only one way: that is might be a step towards his restoration to the throne. After all, Chambord is long dead and there were no longer two competing factions for the French monarchy; most of the Legitimists quickly turned to support his candidacy following Chambord's death, with only the most reactionary, the Blancs d'Espagne refusing to recognize the Comte de Paris as their King and instead proclaiming that it was male Branch of the Spanish Bourbons, who were also the Carlist pretenders, were King of France.

The marriage wouldn't impact the French Republic's relationship with Russia, but I doubt they would see any benefit from their end. Sure, a member of the Orléans family is Empress of Russia, but I don't see her having any pull towards France. Why push Russia further towards a path with the French when her own family is barred from setting foot in the country.

However, given that the match was one approved of by Alexander III and Marie Feodorovna, it does have a better shot. Her father and the Pope may of objected to a match with Britain because the conversion meant becoming a Protestant. Her grandfather, the Prince Royal Louis-Philippe had been married to a Protestant with no fuss, so perhaps that is why the French Pretender balked at the idea of his daughter having to convert.

The big issue is Alexandra. As long as Nicholas is infatuated with her, he's not going to consider Helene or anyone else. There is also the big problem as Helene herself wasn't interested in the match: I think she was considered by the Emperor and Empress, but nothing formal ever began, with the big reason being that she did not want to convert to Russian Orthodoxy. Her being in England meant she had lots of contact with Prince Albert Victor and they fell in love, hence her offering to convert.

You just need a POD that will make Nicholas want to be with Helene; after all, even Alix refused at first over the religious issue but ultimately consented to marry him as she'd grown to like him. Perhaps if the 1886 banishment law is never passed, the Orléanists remain in France. That'd also free Helene from the mind of the English Prince. It'd also be a way for the Republic to see benefits, especially if the Orléanists are politically and socially active within the country, although it's hard to create an atmosphere where the Republic doesn't want to banish them.

A restoration of the monarchy would also make this much more possible, if Chambord died early enough before the Royalist Parliament turned Republican. Or perhaps with no banishment law something could occur with Boulanger although he was an opportunist and pretty much courted all of the royalist factions for support.
 
Yes, he would've been consulted. Mostly because royal marriages were more political than anything and despite the House of Orléans having been off the throne since 1848, they were still royalty. That is the big thing to keep in mind: just because they formally occupied the French throne doesn't mean such a marriage would improve relations with France. The Orléanists lived in England, and I daresay the French Republic would probably not care at all. There was a flush of royalist sentiment following the collapse of Napoleon III, but it quickly turned to Republicanism when the Comte de Chambord remained intransigent over the flag.

Helene's father could probably see the benefit to such a match, but only one way: that is might be a step towards his restoration to the throne. After all, Chambord is long dead and there were no longer two competing factions for the French monarchy; most of the Legitimists quickly turned to support his candidacy following Chambord's death, with only the most reactionary, the Blancs d'Espagne refusing to recognize the Comte de Paris as their King and instead proclaiming that it was male Branch of the Spanish Bourbons, who were also the Carlist pretenders, were King of France.

The marriage wouldn't impact the French Republic's relationship with Russia, but I doubt they would see any benefit from their end. Sure, a member of the Orléans family is Empress of Russia, but I don't see her having any pull towards France. Why push Russia further towards a path with the French when her own family is barred from setting foot in the country.

However, given that the match was one approved of by Alexander III and Marie Feodorovna, it does have a better shot. Her father and the Pope may of objected to a match with Britain because the conversion meant becoming a Protestant. Her grandfather, the Prince Royal Louis-Philippe had been married to a Protestant with no fuss, so perhaps that is why the French Pretender balked at the idea of his daughter having to convert.

The big issue is Alexandra. As long as Nicholas is infatuated with her, he's not going to consider Helene or anyone else. There is also the big problem as Helene herself wasn't interested in the match: I think she was considered by the Emperor and Empress, but nothing formal ever began, with the big reason being that she did not want to convert to Russian Orthodoxy. Her being in England meant she had lots of contact with Prince Albert Victor and they fell in love, hence her offering to convert.

You just need a POD that will make Nicholas want to be with Helene; after all, even Alix refused at first over the religious issue but ultimately consented to marry him as she'd grown to like him. Perhaps if the 1886 banishment law is never passed, the Orléanists remain in France. That'd also free Helene from the mind of the English Prince. It'd also be a way for the Republic to see benefits, especially if the Orléanists are politically and socially active within the country, although it's hard to create an atmosphere where the Republic doesn't want to banish them.

A restoration of the monarchy would also make this much more possible, if Chambord died early enough before the Royalist Parliament turned Republican. Or perhaps with no banishment law something could occur with Boulanger although he was an opportunist and pretty much courted all of the royalist factions for support.

Believe me I know all about the attempted Third Restoration. But from the French Republic's POV, having one of their own as Empress of Russia can't hurt right?

Personally I always thought that the Comte de Paris was very foolish over his daughters potential matches. I mean she was courted by the Duke of Clarence and the Tsesarevich. She could have been Queen of the United Kingdom of Empress of Russia and yet she ended up with a minor Italian Prince. Hell having England or Russia's covert support for a Restoration would have been a huge boost but no he chose to thum his nose at the opportunities.

I agree with you on the non pro-French part. Do you think that such a marriage could lead to the banishment law being repealed? It would look pretty awkward that the in-laws of your closest ally aren't allowed in their homeland. Maybe Russia could put pressure on France? I mean the French needed Russia more than the Russians needed France at this point. Russia is still friendly with Germany and to a lesser extent Austria. No need to rock the boat over such a relatively minor thing.

I agree with Alix. I was thinking of either killing her off with her mother and sister or having her do something to drive Nicholas away. Or maybe she never visits Russia in 1889, thus they never fall in love. Truthfully getting rid of Alix should be easy. If Helene was willing to convert for Albert then she would be willing to convert for Nicholas if it was important enough to her. If she and Nicholas are able to deepen their relationship or if Nicholas bows to his families pressure then I'm sure Helene would eventually be willing to convert. After all wasn't it her ancestor who said Paris is well worth a Mass? Then being an Empress is worth converting.

I like the idea of no Banishment but would that be realistic? I mean if the Orleans are more socially and politically active wouldn't that make them more of a threat to the Republic?

I think the best bet would be a Restoration in the 1870s, either Chambord compromises on the flag, dies early or the Parliament caves with the Flag, and just restore it after his death.
 
Believe me I know all about the attempted Third Restoration. But from the French Republic's POV, having one of their own as Empress of Russia can't hurt right?

Personally I always thought that the Comte de Paris was very foolish over his daughters potential matches. I mean she was courted by the Duke of Clarence and the Tsesarevich. She could have been Queen of the United Kingdom of Empress of Russia and yet she ended up with a minor Italian Prince. Hell having England or Russia's covert support for a Restoration would have been a huge boost but no he chose to thum his nose at the opportunities.

I agree with you on the non pro-French part. Do you think that such a marriage could lead to the banishment law being repealed? It would look pretty awkward that the in-laws of your closest ally aren't allowed in their homeland. Maybe Russia could put pressure on France? I mean the French needed Russia more than the Russians needed France at this point. Russia is still friendly with Germany and to a lesser extent Austria. No need to rock the boat over such a relatively minor thing.

I agree with Alix. I was thinking of either killing her off with her mother and sister or having her do something to drive Nicholas away. Or maybe she never visits Russia in 1889, thus they never fall in love. Truthfully getting rid of Alix should be easy. If Helene was willing to convert for Albert then she would be willing to convert for Nicholas if it was important enough to her. If she and Nicholas are able to deepen their relationship or if Nicholas bows to his families pressure then I'm sure Helene would eventually be willing to convert. After all wasn't it her ancestor who said Paris is well worth a Mass? Then being an Empress is worth converting.

I like the idea of no Banishment but would that be realistic? I mean if the Orleans are more socially and politically active wouldn't that make them more of a threat to the Republic?

I think the best bet would be a Restoration in the 1870s, either Chambord compromises on the flag, dies early or the Parliament caves with the Flag, and just restore it after his death.

Yeah, the Count of Paris really wasn't a great pretender. I get a sense that he accepted the burden of being heir to the House of Orléans, but wasn't going to go out of his way to try and bring a Restoration about. The most he did in the 1870s was simply withdrawing his claim to the throne to end the squabbling between the Legitimists and Orléanists, with the understanding that he would succeed Chambord when he died. After both Nicholas and Albert was dashed, Helene herself hoped to bring about her marriage to the heir to the throne of Italy, but that too went under when nothing materialized during her visit and he married Elena of Montenegro in 1896 (which is really quite the snub, haha).

The Republic not banishing the French Royal Family? Highly unlikely. Them being more active does pose a threat in some ways (ie. people growing disillusioned with the scandal, corruption and instability that plagued the Republic in the period of the Belle Epoque) and looking towards the Count of Paris as another "Prince-President" to bring order to the nation. In reality, though, the Orléanists were pretty much the first to rally to the Republic and seeing it as the form of government that divided France the least. I know that in midst of the 1870s, one of the Count's sons volunteered for the army, while another was elected to the Parliament. It's quite likely that Republicans would look upon these acts by the family with suspicion no matter what.

Now, assuming they are still banished but Nicholas marries Helene, it could force the French Republic to do something regarding the 1886 law, but only if pushed by Russia. Helene herself would probably be fine as after her marriage she would be part of the Russian Imperial Family and the Republic, isolated in Europe at this point sans Russia, is not going to attempt to offend their only ally.

If there is a state visit to France and it goes quite well, you might see a limited reform of the 1886 law: allowing some members of the House of Orléans to return to the country but probably still barring the Count of Paris himself, possibly his eldest son, too. They would also still be barred from joining the army, navy, or foreign legion, as well as barring them from playing any part in the political life of the country such as running for office. Russia might not even have to press France to do so; they may do it of their own accord after such a successful visit and believing it would help tilt Russia further towards France.

But yes, the best way to bring this about would be the Restoration succeeding in the 1870s. It would change the 1870s and 1880s, but I don't see any massive butterflies that would fundamentally change things. If she falls for Nicholas, she'd be willing to convert most certainly, and the Count of Paris, actually King in this situation would see the political benefit. Even if he proves resistant to the match (doubtful if he's actually reigning), then certainly his son could influence him, who was much more active in his role as pretender IOTL. It's also relatively easy to get rid of Alix or at least keeping her from meeting Nicholas.
 
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