WI Empire of Nicaea had an Eastern focus?

Zlorfik

Banned
Historically, the Empire of Nicaea was focused mostly on destroying the Latin Empire, and occasionally on defensive operations vs. the Seljuks.

What if it were the other way around?

For our scenario, let's imagine that the despotate of Epirus conquered the Latin empire all the way from Thessaly up to the Bosphorus, leading to a stand-off across the straits.

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Here's how the situation looked IOTL
 

Deleted member 67076

Focusing on the Seljuqs would be better in the long run than going after the Latin Empire as it would aid in regaining the traditional powerbase of the empire. It'll also be easier to hold than Europe where the Byzantines will have to compete with Serbs, the Bulgars, the Franks and the Sicilians.

All Nicea has to do is just wait until the Mongols come in and cause the Seljuqs to implode during their invasion, and bit by bit conquer the beyliks (and Trebizond), regaining land that has been lost for centuries. After that, they can reinvade Europe.
 

Zlorfik

Banned
Well, I guess it is a fair approximation of what could have happened.

But in that TL nicaea does soon expand into constantinople, then into macedonia, then latin greece... the scenario I'm talking about involves, in essence, two separate byzantiums living (for the time being) in equilibrium.
 
First of all, there needs to be a reason for Nicea to focus on the East and a reason for them to not recover Byzantium. This can be done by a Bulgarian capture of Constantinople before the 1240s. This Bulgarian empire would in many ways adopt Byzantine customs but continue to use Bulgarian as the military language and would speak Greek for prestige. The empire would also encompass the Despot of Epirus this killing all successors of Byzantium save Nicea. With a massive Bulgarian empire in Greece, Nicea looks eastward toward Trebizond perhaps.

Nicea if centered in Anatolia will have a better time against the Turks then if they were in Greece. The Seljuk sultanate of Rum is quite strong and will not be easy to invade. However time is on the side of Nicea, as the Mongol horde comes in and curb stomps the Seljuks in 1242. This gives Nicea the opportunity to take the central of Anatolia, perhaps immigrating crowded Greek settlements eastward pushing the Turks back. The Turks might leave before then though if Nicea attacks right after the Mongol horde, then it might be enough of a shock for the semi sedentary Turks, and they precede to migrate elsewhere (perhaps toward Caucasia). Nicea will then set its sites on Trebizond, who it will not be impressed with and will take the fragile state, perhaps with Trebizond surviving in Kaffa and such in Bosporus. To stay powerful, I would suggest for them to create an alliance with the Ilkhanate against the Niceans biggest threat, the Mamluk sultanate of Egypt led by Saif ad din-Qutuz, to make things safer have Qutuz after defeating Hulagu survive Baibars coup attempt and kill Baibars for treason. This gives Outremor some breathing room who will probably become a buffer zone between Nicea and The Mamluks.

However the biggest threat in the future is the rise of Timur and the near inevitable fall of the Ilkhanate (which would need tweaks to be saved). Once fallen, Nicea will be on its own for the most part, and will have to go toe to toe with the Timurids (not fun) they will meet the same (or worse) fate as the Ottomans did under Bayezid. What to do afterwards is up to you, however I will post more on future later as I get feedback.
 
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First of all, there needs to be a reason for Nicea to focus on the East and a reason for them to not recover Byzantium. This can be done by a Bulgarian capture of Constantinople before the 1240s. This Bulgarian empire would in many ways adopt Byzantine customs but continue to use Bulgarian as the military language and would speak Greek for prestige. The empire would also encompass the Despot of Epirus this killing all successors of Byzantium save Nicea. With a massive Bulgarian empire in Greece, Nicea looks eastward toward Trebizond perhaps.

Nicea if centered in Anatolia will have a better time against the Turks then if they were in Greece. The Seljuk sultanate of Rum is quite strong and will not be easy to invade. However time is on the side of Nicea, as the Mongol horde comes in and curb stomps the Seljuks in 1242. This gives Nicea the opportunity to take the central of Anatolia, perhaps immigrating crowded Greek settlements eastward pushing the Turks back. The Turks might leave before then though if Nicea attacks right after the Mongol horde, then it might be enough of a shock for the semi sedentary Turks, and they precede to migrate elsewhere (perhaps toward Caucasia). Nicea will then set its sites on Trebizond, who it will not be impressed with and will take the fragile state, perhaps with Trebizond surviving in Kaffa and such in Bosporus. To stay powerful, I would suggest for them to create an alliance with the Ilkhanate against the Niceabs biggest threat, the Mamluk sultanate of Egypt led by Saif ad din-Qutuz, to make things safer have Quruz after defeating Hulagu survive Baibars coup attempt and kill Baibars for treason. This gives Outremor some breathing room who will probably become a buffer zone between Nicea and The Mamluks.

However the biggest threat in the future is the rise of Timur and the near inevitable fall of the Ilkhanate (which would need tweaks to be saved). Once fallen, Nicea will be on its own for the most part, and will have to go toe to toe with the Timurids (not fun) they will meet the same (or worse) fate as the Ottomans did under Bayezid. What to do afterwards is up to you, however I will post more on future later as I get feedback.
Actually,the Sultanate of Rum began it's decline around this period.During the 1200s,Rum suffered invasion by the Mongols,civil war and fragmentation.
 
I really do find it difficult to see any of the Greek successor states after 1204 putting control of Constantinople on the back-burner. The City was the whole focus of Byzantine political thought and culture, after all. Compared to this, Anatolia hadn't been Byzantine territory for a century and a half in Nicaea's time. 1204 was a living memory, 1071 was not.
 

GdwnsnHo

Banned
I really do find it difficult to see any of the Greek successor states after 1204 putting control of Constantinople on the back-burner. The City was the whole focus of Byzantine political thought and culture, after all. Compared to this, Anatolia hadn't been Byzantine territory for a century and a half in Nicaea's time. 1204 was a living memory, 1071 was not.

All of this.

In my opinion what could be an intriguing development would be if Epirus and Nicaea unified as a single state, but with two Emperors, which AFAIK isn't unheard of in Roman History.

Assuming they'd both rule from Constantinople, or from a pair of second capitals (I'd imagine Thessalonica and Nicomedia would both fit this role well) then if they have an agreement where one Emperor (The Komneno-Doukid) focuses on the West, and the other (The Laskarid) on the East.

Handling succession is a bit more tricky, but if they simply agree that the Emperor on the throne longest is Senior, then that would handle succession issues.

I can see this providing the "Nicaean Emperor" additional shared resources and an Eastern Focus, with the "Thracian/Epirote Emperor" the same shared resources, but a focus on the West.

As long as they can prevent infighting, the shared resources would boost the recovery, and as long as joint issues are discussed jointly, it would enable improved rule of each side of the Empire, assuming the Emperors co-operate, and don't just try and spend all the money on "their" side of the Bosporus.
 
The problem with that is that that particular concept I doubt was popular in any way, given that the last time it happened, the Western Empire was hopelessly weak, and the Eastern Empire at times interfered in the matters of the West. What's not to say a greedy emperor decide that they want the whole pie?
 
Actually,the Sultanate of Rum began it's decline around this period.During the 1200s,Rum suffered invasion by the Mongols,civil war and fragmentation.


Not really. At the beginning of the Nicean empire (1204) the Seljuks were still strong, notice how I said after the Mongol invasion would Nicea conquer the area.
 
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