WI: Emperor Gaozong of Song didn't escape?

What part of this do you not understand?

What you said? You said nothing. You just said Jin might kill some Mongol Chieftains. And why would they do this? Why Jin policy toward Mongols tribes would change? Why would Jin kill Temujin's father or grandfather (they did kill him)? Can you explain me what would change on Jin Dynasty's if they conquer Song Dynatsy?

Again you said nothing but just words. You have no logic and understanding about any history of Jin and Mongols.
 
Last edited:

Dorozhand

Banned
What you said? You said nothing. You just said Jin might kill some Mongol Chieftains. And why would they do this? Why Jin policy toward Mongols tribes would change? Why would Jin kill Temujin's father or grandfather (they did kill him)? Can you explain me what would change on Jin Dynasty's if they conquer Song Dynatsy?

Again you said nothing but just words. You have no logic and understanding about any history of Jin and Mongols.

You're not making any sense. First you say that I said nothing, and then that I said "just words". Then you contradict yourself by asking why Jin would "kill Temujin's father", and then saying that they did. Then you insult me by saying I have no knowledge about the Chinese or the Mongols.

I just explained that Jin's power-projection ability and its goals and policies would be altered in the event of a complete conquest of Song. I will again attempt to explain this to you:

- Emperor Gaozong doesn't escape to regroup Song in the south

- Southern Song fractures and Jin keeps advancing southwards instead of consolidating the north

- This means that all of Jin's armies and power-projection ability are dedicated to south China.

- Which means that its political and military situation is significantly altered from OTL

- Which means that Jin will have different stances toward the Mongols and other peoples to the north and west. It also means that Jin's ability to project its influence is altered for the worse or better depending on the circumstances.

- Temujin's ancestors had interactions with the Jin, and a few of them were even killed by the Jin when they didn't conform to their policies and interests

- A Jin with a different situation, different goals, and different abilities from OTL Jin is going to have different interactions with foreign powers. Empires don't exist in a vacuum, their actions influence the world around them.
 
You're not making any sense. First you say that I said nothing, and then that I said "just words". Then you contradict yourself by asking why Jin would "kill Temujin's father", and then saying that they did. Then you insult me by saying I have no knowledge about the Chinese or the Mongols.

I just explained that Jin's power-projection ability and its goals and policies would be altered in the event of a complete conquest of Song. I will again attempt to explain this to you:

- Emperor Gaozong doesn't escape to regroup Song in the south

- Southern Song fractures and Jin keeps advancing southwards instead of consolidating the north

- This means that all of Jin's armies and power-projection ability are dedicated to south China.

- Which means that its political and military situation is significantly altered from OTL

- Which means that Jin will have different stances toward the Mongols and other peoples to the north and west. It also means that Jin's ability to project its influence is altered for the worse or better depending on the circumstances.

- Temujin's ancestors had interactions with the Jin, and a few of them were even killed by the Jin when they didn't conform to their policies and interests

- A Jin with a different situation, different goals, and different abilities from OTL Jin is going to have different interactions with foreign powers. Empires don't exist in a vacuum, their actions influence the world around them.

Did you give me proof and logical events that would lead to not birth of Temujin's?

Please give me good reasoning i would make my apologize, if not just you need to stop making this kind of bullshit...
 
Did you give me proof and logical events that would lead to not birth of Temujin's[/B]?

Please give me good reasoning i would make my apologize, if not just you need to stop making this kind of bullshit...


I'm not sure if your reading comprehension is poor or if you're being a troll or what, but...

You're not making any sense. First you say that I said nothing, and then that I said "just words". Then you contradict yourself by asking why Jin would "kill Temujin's father", and then saying that they did. Then you insult me by saying I have no knowledge about the Chinese or the Mongols.

I just explained that Jin's power-projection ability and its goals and policies would be altered in the event of a complete conquest of Song. I will again attempt to explain this to you:

- Emperor Gaozong doesn't escape to regroup Song in the south

- Southern Song fractures and Jin keeps advancing southwards instead of consolidating the north

- This means that all of Jin's armies and power-projection ability are dedicated to south China.

- Which means that its political and military situation is significantly altered from OTL

- Which means that Jin will have different stances toward the Mongols and other peoples to the north and west. It also means that Jin's ability to project its influence is altered for the worse or better depending on the circumstances.

- Temujin's ancestors had interactions with the Jin, and a few of them were even killed by the Jin when they didn't conform to their policies and interests

- A Jin with a different situation, different goals, and different abilities from OTL Jin is going to have different interactions with foreign powers. Empires don't exist in a vacuum, their actions influence the world around them.

Literally he's said like a bajillion times that some of Temujin's ancestor's were killed by the Jin IOTL, so it would make a lot of send that the underlined point would interact with the bolded point and quite possible lead to Temujin never being born, if different ancestors were killed or the ancestor's married differently or what have you.


Also, there's really no need at all to be rude EVER here, even if someone seems like they're being obtuse or stating things over and over that don't make sense :rolleyes:
 

Dorozhand

Banned
I'm not sure if your reading comprehension is poor or if you're being a troll or what, but...



Literally he's said like a bajillion times that some of Temujin's ancestor's were killed by the Jin IOTL, so it would make a lot of send that the underlined point would interact with the bolded point and quite possible lead to Temujin never being born, if different ancestors were killed or the ancestor's married differently or what have you.


Also, there's really no need at all to be rude EVER here, even if someone seems like they're being obtuse or stating things over and over that don't make sense :rolleyes:

I just re-read through the entire debate, and I lol'd the whole way through. It was like a Monty Python sketch :D
 
Lets make thing clear...

The Mongol invasions will probably get butterflied as, IIRC, a few of Temujin's near ancestors had interactions with the Jin as they were in the 12th century. This would probably result in a different birth and/or upbringing for him.

I admit my English is not perfect but my understanding is that:
Dorozhand think probable outcome of Jin Dynasty conquest of Song Dynasty would led to not birth of Temujin or prevent rise of Mongols.

I still can't understand why it would probably butterflied?
Can someone explain me why Jin conquest probably result not birth of Temujin and stop rise of Mongols...
 
Last edited:
Also, there's really no need at all to be rude EVER here, even if someone seems like they're being obtuse or stating things over and over that don't make sense :rolleyes:

Yes as I said, my English is bad, and maybe seems my knowledge of Jin and Mongol history is too poor compared to yours that I can't understand simple thing.

So can you explain me why Jin Dynasty conquest of Song and Temujin's birth will have interaction other than OTL? What kind of events would lead to this?

Can you show me what kind of my "denying argument" is total "nonsense and bullshit", so i could put more plausible and better argument for the future...

My apologize if I'm offending you...
 
Last edited:
Yes as I said, my English is bad, and maybe seems my knowledge of Jin and Mongol history is too poor compared to yours that I can't understand simple thing.

So can you explain me why Jin Dynasty conquest of Song and Temujin's birth will have interaction other than OTL? What kind of events would lead to this?

Can you show me what kind of my "denying argument" is total "nonsense and bullshit", so i could put more plausible and better argument for the future...

My apologize if I'm offending you...

I'm really sorry, I don't think anyone can put it plainer than we already have; perhaps someone here speaks your native language or you can try using an online translator if you aren't understanding?

Honestly I don't know much at all about Jin/Mongol interactions or history, but from what I've read in this thread, it appears the Mongols were tributary states to the Jin who were in the position to have their leaders killed; these leaders who might or might not have been killed were the ancestors of Temujin.

If there is an empire dealing with someone's ancestors, and they killed those ancestors, it's going to go very hard for the people they were supposed to have.

As for the reasons the Jin might kill the ancestors, search me. I'm not sure what normally precipitated murder of that kind, but even if they aren't flat out killed; the butterflies are enormous. The ancestors of Temujin might not meet each other, they ight get married to different people (precluding Temujin from ever being conceived just as easily as if the ancestors were killed), etc. etc.

Earlier in the thread, you said there's no way for the Jin to prevent Temujin; why do you assert this? It's very easy to prevent someone from being born, and even if the general policy didn't change (it would change because they have essentially doubled? tripled? quadrupled? their land size, and something of that scale can't help but interfere with any and all relations a empire has with the outside, especially in the days of poorer communication and longer travel times) simple interactions can prevent the specific combination of DNA and experiences of Temujin's childhood from ever occurring. Certianly there might be another warlord of the same stripe; but he might be better, worse, or just different. As you say, the whole of Temujin's story sounds like ASB...and OTL ASB stories are notoriously easy to screw up (i.e. Napoleon, etc.)

If you aren't meaning to come across as mad/irritated/condescending, that's very unfortunate. I took from the phrase "making this kind of bullshit" as something you couldn't help but understand would be inflammatory. Personally, while I find some of your phrasing/sentence construction to be odd, I've certainly found no difficulty in understanding you ;)
 
I'm really sorry, I don't think anyone can put it plainer than we already have; perhaps someone here speaks your native language or you can try using an online translator if you aren't understanding?

Honestly I don't know much at all about Jin/Mongol interactions or history, but from what I've read in this thread, it appears the Mongols were tributary states to the Jin who were in the position to have their leaders killed; these leaders who might or might not have been killed were the ancestors of Temujin.

If there is an empire dealing with someone's ancestors, and they killed those ancestors, it's going to go very hard for the people they were supposed to have.

As for the reasons the Jin might kill the ancestors, search me. I'm not sure what normally precipitated murder of that kind, but even if they aren't flat out killed; the butterflies are enormous. The ancestors of Temujin might not meet each other, they ight get married to different people (precluding Temujin from ever being conceived just as easily as if the ancestors were killed), etc. etc.

Thanks for understanding.
My whole arguments are related to each others. From start to end my point was one and simple
"Only PoD of Jin conquest of Song Dynasty can't butterfly Temujin's birth and rise"...
I admitted that special PoD could lead to Temujin, but just plain general Jin Dynasty PoD won't influence anything regarding Temujin.

Birth of Temujin has nothing to do with Jin Dynasty and its policy towards Song Dynasty.
1. If Jin Dynasty not involved in Mongol affair then Temujin will born as OTL and will unite other tribes as OTL more easily and earlier.
2. If Jin Dynasty involved in Mongol affairs, it will be same as OTL. Then it is all over OTL story.

Unless it is special PoD to kill Temujin, then there is no way to disrupt birth and rise of Genghis Khaan.
 
Earlier in the thread, you said there's no way for the Jin to prevent Temujin; why do you assert this?

Just checked my posts, but it seems that I repeated over and over again that Jin Dynasty conquest won't lead to event that would prevent Temujin's birth and rise.

I stand my view that "Temujin's birth and rise is not related to Jin Dynasty's conquest of Song Dynasty". Temujin would born and rise to power regardless of Jin Dynasty's conquest of Southern Song.

I'm not denied about special PoD that would lead to Temujin being not born.

Unless it is special PoD to kill Temujin, then there is no way to disrupt birth and rise of Genghis Khaan.
 
Earlier in the thread, you said there's no way for the Jin to prevent Temujin; why do you assert this? It's very easy to prevent someone from being born, and even if the general policy didn't change (it would change because they have essentially doubled? tripled? quadrupled? their land size, and something of that scale can't help but interfere with any and all relations a empire has with the outside, especially in the days of poorer communication and longer travel times) simple interactions can prevent the specific combination of DNA and experiences of Temujin's childhood from ever occurring. Certianly there might be another warlord of the same stripe; but he might be better, worse, or just different. As you say, the whole of Temujin's story sounds like ASB...and OTL ASB stories are notoriously easy to screw up (i.e. Napoleon, etc.)

This all argument started because Dorozhand thinks Jin conquest of Song would butterfly the Mongol invasion...

The Mongol invasions will probably get butterflied as, IIRC, a few of Temujin's near ancestors had interactions with the Jin as they were in the 12th century. This would probably result in a different birth and/or upbringing for him.

I just denying that it is not logical to think that because of Jin conquest would result to Temujin being not born at all...
 
Top