WI: Emperor becomes Pope/Patriarch?

Just out of morbid curiosity, what might happen if a Holy/Eastern Roman Emperor tried to take the title of Pope of Rome/Patriarch of Constantinople for themselves and merge it/them with the title of emperor?
 
Depends on how he goes about it.

If he claims he's the reincarnation of Jesus he can say that he is God's representative on earth and therefore the Papacy/Patriarchy should be his.

He could go ultra divine will.

He could found a new heresy in which he is supposed to be Emperor and Spiritual Leader.

A caliph could conquer the ERE and Patriachy, but that's cheating

Etc.

And if the emperor doesn't produce an heir then fuck civil war at:
 
No.



I suppose you want more, huh? Alright: The West had a strong tradition that the Church was independent of the temporal rulers of Christendom going back all the way to Ambrose. The East was much more accepting of the Church being integrated in the government, but much less accepting of the clergy being involved in things like warfare.

So, no. He'd be declared mad and deposed if he was lucky.
 
Depends on how he goes about it.

If he claims he's the reincarnation of Jesus he can say that he is God's representative on earth and therefore the Papacy/Patriarchy should be his.

He could go ultra divine will.

He could found a new heresy in which he is supposed to be Emperor and Spiritual Leader.

A caliph could conquer the ERE and Patriachy, but that's cheating

Etc.

And if the emperor doesn't produce an heir then fuck civil war at:

Boy, this emperor is really angling to be assassinated and/or deal with a major uprising, eh?
 
Boy, this emperor is really angling to be assassinated and/or deal with a major uprising, eh?

Yeah he is. The only one who could succeed is the Caliph.

I mean even if he actually was Jesus 2 he probably would get assassinated for uniting church and state int he ultimate fashion.
 
Yeah no. There's eccentric and then there's full on crazy. Guess which one this Emperor would be?

However, that's not to say that it would be impossible for an Emperor to control the Church completely. Look at the Romanovs from Peter I: they did away with the Patriarchate and made the Church a government department. Or Henry VIII's position as Supreme Head of the Church. Its possible but only if they don't claim a religious title. The Emperor could be Defender of the Faith, Guardian of the Church or something else along those lines, but never Emperor or Patriarch. Hell at least a few Emperors were called Equal of the Apostles, so they could use that as well.
 

Yuelang

Banned
Hypothetic Emperor Z or HRE have three sons

First son is Prince A, original heir to the crown, but he's a known vicious tyrant who clearly evil, but he's the lawful candidate. He loves to rape women and mutilate children.

Second son is Prince B, better military commander and such, as well as having some friends in the military to pull something off, but he's also known for his love to raiding and kill men without any reasons

Third and youngest son is Prince C, a good, kind hearted young man who is also very religious. Since Emperor Z doesn't want him to be corrupted as his brothers are, Prince C was sent to seminary to get a career in clergy.

And so everything goes well, for several years, and Prince C is now a Cardinal (partially thanks to his piety and such, but also his connection), and before long, Prince C is elected as Pope in fair election (due to his spiritual inspirations and such)

Emperor Z then get assassinated, but it was unclear on who sent the assassin, either Prince A or Prince B could be the one who done that.

Civil war erupts and long story short, both Prince A and Prince B end up dead in battle, for drama's sake, they kill each others in a duel...

Pope C is now the legal claimant of the Throne, and he decides to press his claim...
 
Hypothetic Emperor Z or HRE have three sons

First son is Prince A, original heir to the crown, but he's a known vicious tyrant who clearly evil, but he's the lawful candidate. He loves to rape women and mutilate children.

Second son is Prince B, better military commander and such, as well as having some friends in the military to pull something off, but he's also known for his love to raiding and kill men without any reasons

Third and youngest son is Prince C, a good, kind hearted young man who is also very religious. Since Emperor Z doesn't want him to be corrupted as his brothers are, Prince C was sent to seminary to get a career in clergy.

And so everything goes well, for several years, and Prince C is now a Cardinal (partially thanks to his piety and such, but also his connection), and before long, Prince C is elected as Pope in fair election (due to his spiritual inspirations and such)

Emperor Z then get assassinated, but it was unclear on who sent the assassin, either Prince A or Prince B could be the one who done that.

Civil war erupts and long story short, both Prince A and Prince B end up dead in battle, for drama's sake, they kill each others in a duel...

Pope C is now the legal claimant of the Throne, and he decides to press his claim...

Completely different scenario than what the OP was suggesting. Being a cleric doesn't invalidate one to inheriting a throne. Look at Cardinal-King Henry of Portugal. However, you forget that the Holy Roman Empire is an elective monarchy. The new Pope can claim whatever he wants, but chances are the Prince-Electors would chose a new dynasty/ a distant relative. The most the Pope could do in such a scenario is cause a civil war with the new King of the Romans/Emperor.
 
No.



I suppose you want more, huh? Alright: The West had a strong tradition that the Church was independent of the temporal rulers of Christendom going back all the way to Ambrose. The East was much more accepting of the Church being integrated in the government, but much less accepting of the clergy being involved in things like warfare.

So, no. He'd be declared mad and deposed if he was lucky.

What about the Church of England?
 
I think this would be more likely the other way around, namely, a Pope or Patriarch that claims the Imperial throne. A (more) wildly successful Pope Julius II, or at least someone in that vein, might be able to pull it off. It is very difficult to imagine TBH.

Since you didn't specify a POD, I see potential in the idea of a particularly forceful and charismatic Pope being a figure of temporal authority in the dying days of the Roman Empire when there is nobody left standing. Such a figure might "claim" to be Emperor, or it could be awarded to them by the Eastern Emperor who decides there is no one else. However this runs the very real risk that any conquering barbarian will decide to abolish what remains of the Catholic church when they eventually take Rome.
 
Completely different scenario than what the OP was suggesting. Being a cleric doesn't invalidate one to inheriting a throne. Look at Cardinal-King Henry of Portugal. However, you forget that the Holy Roman Empire is an elective monarchy. The new Pope can claim whatever he wants, but chances are the Prince-Electors would chose a new dynasty/ a distant relative. The most the Pope could do in such a scenario is cause a civil war with the new King of the Romans/Emperor.

Well, the Empire wasn't legally elective for all of its history, but like all of the medieval monarchies it really was in practice. I was under the impression that taking your vows would disquallify you from the line of succession, but Cardinal-King Henry (didn't know of him, thanks for that) seems to disprove that.

Hmm, upon checking his wiki page
"Henry attempted to renounce his ecclesiastical office and sought to take a bride for the continuation of the Avis dynasty, but Pope Gregory XIII, not wanting to anger Philip II, did not release him from his vows."

So it seems he's a really big legal grey area.
 
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