WI Elser Killed Hitler? (thread circa 2011)

I realize threads like this have been done before, but I though I'd bring the subject up again, and bring up some more specific questions on my mind.

So -- what if Georg Elser's bomb at the Bürgerbräukeller had gone off at the opportune time? Were any other high ranking officials, besides Hitler, in the vicinity? Of course, who would succeed him? Who would the new leadership seek to work with? And who would they seek to exclude/"remove"? Also -- what happens to the freshly begun war? How are the fate of the jews and other minority groups (e.g. gypsies, etc) different? Would there still be a Final Solution?

EDIT ADD: And almost forgot -- what is the effect on the world overall -- geopolitically and otherwise? (e.g. How does the Sino-Japanese War evolve? US election 1940? Anything else...)
 
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You only gave it three hours. Give people time to reply.

I'm not sure who else was with Hitler at the Burgerbraukeller. However, it probably only would have been people associated with the actual 1923 Beer Hall Putsch.

Assuming Goering is not there and doesn't die, then Goering takes over. At this point, there is no real challenger.

At that point in the war, it is possible that Germany could get peace provided it gives up its conquests in Poland. The Allies might allow Danzig and a corridor to Germany to be kept. If that happens, Stalin might even withdraw from his part of Poland since his troops would no longer be needed to "protect the Ukrainian and Byelorussian minorities". Or those areas might be allowed to be retained by the Soviet Union provided some sort of plebsicite is held. Hard to tell.

If Germany is not willing to give up any part of Poland, then it is war. Let's say Germany wins in Spring 1940 as it normally did. If at that time, Goering announces a peace in Western Europe returning to the status quo (except for perhaps Alsace-Lorraine) and keeping his Polish conquests, it is possible that Britain makes peace as Goering could have more credibility than Hitler in keeping his promises.

But there are a lot of unknowns. Different people can argue very different things and they all could be plausible.
 
Agree that Goring's the successor -- do the Jews fare better?

I think the Jews fare a LOT better *if* Goring can keep the same kind of power Hitler did over the National Socialist state. Goring was somewhat anti-Semitic, but at this time he's probably not going to be up for democidal adventures without the Hitler clique and the killing apparatus already in place.
 
I think that Goering, if he can stay in power is going to conduct the war like Hitler did. I think he will order the same invasions. I think the war proceeds just like OTL.
 
Goring would certainly listen to the generals better. Yet he wasn't as ambitious as Hitler was so he probably would go for peace, starting with no invasion of Norway and Denmark. Invasion of France could happen, but much later. If they would do it, it would have the same result. He wouldn't attackYugoslavia though. Couldn't be peace with Britain then either and the battle for Britain would be horribly lost by Germany.... After that no clue.
 
Goering is considered to have been a Wilhelmine imperialist and did not share Hitler's view on Lebensraum. I don't think he would invade the Soviet Union on his own.

The critical period is what happens after France falls. If Goering offers good enough terms, there is a possibility Britain might make peace. This is highly debateable though. I think good arguments might be made on both sides.

If Goering terms are unacceptable, or Churchill convinces the cabinet to keep fighting, you have the same stalemate that Hitler faced. Since a Channel invasion is not truly feasible, the only option is a Mediterrranean strategy combined increased U-Boat warefare.

One reason Mussolini invaded Greece is that Hitler had originally told him to back down from involvement in Romania (Balkans were considered an Italian, not a German sphere of influence) only to later send in German troops. Hitler never explained to Mussolini that he was planning on attacking the Soviet Union to give reasons for his actions. That made Mussolini feel like he was being played a fool so he attacked Greece without informing the Germans.

Without Hitler and perhaps with no plan to go to war against the Soviet Union, we might expect better communication between Germany and Italy. Perhaps even better cooperation. The war might not expand to the Balkans, and Germany might send more assets to Italy in the hope that the capture of Malta and the Suez Canal might force Britain to the peace table especially if Syria and Iraq defect to the Axis.

At that point, there is another possibility that peace might be brokered. Again, this is an area that is highly debateable. Lots of different results would be plausible. Egypt may become sort of Anglo-Italian condominimum, with Britain retaining control of the Suez Canal except for certain Italian rights. Italy may gain Malta, Cyprus, and the Palestinian Mandate while German terms are limited in Europe plus return of some former colonies.

If the European war is over by 1941, who knows what would happen. Would Stalin ever actually invade? Would the US still embargo Japan? What happens to China?

Educated guesses can be made, but nothing with certainty.
 

abc123

Banned
I don't think this changes the war in 1940. Goering won't give up any piece of Poland,so there is no peace agreement.

IMO the Goering will ask for borders from 1914.


Also, if Goering becomes Fuhrer and Chancellor ( would he even become a Fuhrer? ) who will lead Luftwaffe?
 
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goering takes over - and stop the racism.
goering was no antisemit or racist - just did what hitler wanted him to do so he could gain more power and wealth

with goering as leader, the western allies are really in trouble, cause he will never attack russia, instead he will work together with stalin.

In this situation (it is questionable if france falls so quick - cause goering is airforce and wasn´t really hot with the army) france is still doomed, but it could cost more time. Goering will invest more in the airforce and less in the reichsmarine.... the army? get the same they got in 1940...

i bet goering will make a deal (like Peace in the borders of autum 1939)

i doubt the french will agree (before beaten), the brits could accept - after the french defeat
 
Goering was a smart guy. He would have planned far better and won't be taking more than he can chew(is it shew or chew?).

Also, he saved that jewish family that saved his life after the beerhallputz. He would be much milder with Jews then Hitler would. I wonder how well Himmler and Goebbels would listen to him though, being the true anti-semites.

Would there be a "Jewish question"?
 

Perkeo

Banned
With Hitler dead, the Nazi party will be weakened, and likely the Wehrmacht will fill that void. The size of that power shift depends on who else is killed and how well the highest ranking Nazi manages the takeover.

I agree with several other posts that only Hitler himself is mad enough to attack the Sowjet Union, so I would expect a negotiated peace after France falls (in the likely, but not certain scenario that the Battle of France goes as IOTL).
 
IMO the Goering will ask for borders from 1914.


Also, if Goering becomes Fuhrer and Chancellor ( would he even become a Fuhrer? ) who will lead Luftwaffe?

I suspect that he'd want Luxembourg, Austria, and at least parts of Czechia too, nevermind that the 1914 borders are out if the border with Denmark is not reverted. AS far as titles, I suspect that Goering remains Reichsmarschall out of deference to Hitler, but likely assumes the Chancery too in the short term, and will be head of state as Reichsmarschall.
 
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