WI Elizabeth of York had a son in place of Katherine?

What if Elizabeth of York had a son in place of Katherine and he survived? Lets name him Edward after her father. Would King Henry VIII still have a need for a son? Who would he marry? What would happen?
 
What if Elizabeth of York had a son in place of Katherine and he survived? Lets name him Edward after her father. Would King Henry VIII still have a need for a son? Who would he marry? What would happen?

Eh?
Elizabeth of York, daughter of Edward IV, had 2 sons - Arthur and Henry VIII.
 

Ak-84

Banned
He means her last Child who died along with her had been a son, instead of a daughter. To the OP, dose the Prince Edward have sons? Even then remember, he could not become King, until all of Henry's line expired. So it would stil leave him in danger; he still has no son.
 
He means her last Child who died along with her had been a son, instead of a daughter. To the OP, dose the Prince Edward have sons? Even then remember, he could not become King, until all of Henry's line expired. So it would stil leave him in danger; he still has no son.

If Henry the Fat has a brother, and possibly nephews, the stability - or even survival - of the Tudor dynasty isn't as threatened as OTL though. So he (HtF) probably won't be quite as worried about it.

Assuming, of course, that Edward and Henry aren't at odds. :D
 
He means her last Child who died along with her had been a son, instead of a daughter. To the OP, dose the Prince Edward have sons? Even then remember, he could not become King, until all of Henry's line expired. So it would stil leave him in danger; he still has no son.

Ah. Thank you, it wasn't explicit in the OP and my familt tree doesn't show Katharine.

If Henry the Fat has a brother, and possibly nephews, the stability - or even survival - of the Tudor dynasty isn't as threatened as OTL though. So he (HtF) probably won't be quite as worried about it.

Assuming, of course, that Edward and Henry aren't at odds. :D
Quite ;)

The butterflies are huge tho!
 
Quite ;)

The butterflies are huge tho!

Not necessarily (chaos theory advocates, ignore this argument).

Only thirty years between Edward's birth and Henry's second marriage (picked as the point when needing a son meant something).

Still, quite interesting possibilities if one wants more change.
 
I think we need to look at some of the serious effects here.

Presumably the son does not die, and therefore neither does Elizabeth of York. It has been speculated that it was the loss of both his eldest son and wife in quick succession that caused Henry VII to decline and helped contribute to dying when he did. The PoD neatly falls after Arthur's death, so Henry is still heir to the throne, but if Henry VII survives for a few years more, then this could seriously impact on matters relating to the relationship between Spain and England and could avert the involvement in the French Wars in 1512/1513.

A surviving Elizabeth of York is also going to be very interesting when it comes to Henry's relationship at the start of the throne. Presumably she'll still be busy with the education of the young Prince Edward, but she may still be an interesting effect on the young king's policies. A more stable familial situation is also going to have large effects, and even if Henry VIII accedes at the same time and the French Wars carry on as OTL, Elizabeth of York would probably counsel against the marriage between Mary and Louis XII of France. A prospective divorce with Catherine of Aragon is certainly not going to happen while Elizabeth is alive either (she'd certainly disapprove and Henry was fond enough of her that he'd wait until after she was dead, which given that she would be into her 60s by the time the Great Matter came around is likely to be quite soon).

If we presume minimal butterflies, i.e. that we have Henry marrying Catherine of Aragon with no male issue, Margaret married to the King of Scotland but Mary not married to France and instead going strait to Brandon, it seems likely that Edward would marry a French princess, or possibly.
 
If we presume minimal butterflies, i.e. that we have Henry marrying Catherine of Aragon with no male issue, Margaret married to the King of Scotland but Mary not married to France and instead going strait to Brandon, it seems likely that Edward would marry a French princess, or possibly.

I doubt that in this case Mary would be married to Brandon. If she is not married to an old king who dies not much time after their married she would be the wife of other continental noble, who would be unlikely to die as fast as the French king.
 
I think we need to look at some of the serious effects here.

Presumably the son does not die, and therefore neither does Elizabeth of York. It has been speculated that it was the loss of both his eldest son and wife in quick succession that caused Henry VII to decline and helped contribute to dying when he did. The PoD neatly falls after Arthur's death, so Henry is still heir to the throne, but if Henry VII survives for a few years more, then this could seriously impact on matters relating to the relationship between Spain and England and could avert the involvement in the French Wars in 1512/1513.

Any particular reason for this assumption on Elizabeth? Fine by me for discussion's sake, just curious.

On death:
Henry (VII) was fifty-two when he died - not exactly old but not exactly premature (Henry VIII died at fifty-five, Mary at 42, and Elizabeth at 69 - so just below average for his dynasty, not counting those who never reached adulthood).
 
Any particular reason for this assumption on Elizabeth? Fine by me for discussion's sake, just curious.

It's just that it seems the easiest way to ensure our new Prince Edward actually survives long enough to have any effect on history is to avoid any complications at birth, which means that Elizabeth of York doesn't decline in health due to these and so doesn't die in 1503.

On death:
Henry (VII) was fifty-two when he died - not exactly old but not exactly premature (Henry VIII died at fifty-five, Mary at 42, and Elizabeth at 69 - so just below average for his dynasty, not counting those who never reached adulthood).

That's why I'm saying that he might, without the loss of his wife so soon after his eldest son, live a few years longer. Even if he only makes it to 1512 (so +3 years) it has large butterflies on England's Wars in France and the rise of Thomas Wolsey (who OTL at this point had been handpicked by Henry VIII to be his Almoner in 1509 and effectively ran the wars of 1512/13 to become cheif minister by 1514 and Cardinal in 1515.)
 
It's just that it seems the easiest way to ensure our new Prince Edward actually survives long enough to have any effect on history is to avoid any complications at birth, which means that Elizabeth of York doesn't decline in health due to these and so doesn't die in 1503.

Sounds fair to me. How healthy/sickly was she in general before this?

That's why I'm saying that he might, without the loss of his wife so soon after his eldest son, live a few years longer. Even if he only makes it to 1512 (so +3 years) it has large butterflies on England's Wars in France and the rise of Thomas Wolsey (who OTL at this point had been handpicked by Henry VIII to be his Almoner in 1509 and effectively ran the wars of 1512/13 to become cheif minister by 1514 and Cardinal in 1515.)

Might, might not. But okay.

Maybe more so on the latter than the former, but still...
 
Sounds fair to me. How healthy/sickly was she in general before this?

Well, I can't say anything for certain, but there are no mentions of long periods of illness, of being weak or anything else along those lines before she died, so I think it indicates that she should live for at least a decade or 2 longer, putting a death in her late 50s.

Something else that needs to be born in mind is that she was under the thumb of her Mother-in-Law Lady Margaret Beaufort, who was declared regent for Henry VIII in 1509 but died a couple of months later. We can presume that Elizabeth would be regent instead, but Henry was already nearly 18, so I think even if Henry VII lives for a couple months longer only it would mean that a regent isn't needed.
 

Ak-84

Banned
For the first few years of Henry VIII's reign, I see Elizabeth of York being a big, though subtle influence. But, with her around, he might not be so willing to make such a break between his father's reign and his as he did in the first few months OTL, no would his relationship with his father break so much as it did OTL, that he would seek to do so.
 

Ak-84

Banned
For the first few years of Henry VIII's reign, I see Elizabeth of York being a big, though subtle influence. But, with her around, he might not be so willing to make such a break between his father's reign and his as he did in the first few months OTL, no would his relationship with his father break so much as it did OTL, that he would seek to do so.
 
I think Henry Tudor will not have a problem in siring a heir in that scenario because the Tudor dynasty will survive whether he has a son or not.
 
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