WI:Eleanor of Aquitaine marries Ramon Berenguer IV

What will be the consequence if this marriage occurs...I mean Eleanor of Aquitaine marries Ramon Berenguer IV instead of King Henry of England and Normandy after she divorced the King of France.
 
No, that had stopped already. Although Ramon Berenguer IV was married aged only six with his wife five years younger still, by 1152 when Eleanor's second marriage took place their first child had been born. In May of that year actually, so they had got going by 1151 at least.

Crude joking aside, the identity of his wife was quite important, she was the heiress of Aragon. Can't see how Ramon etc. would have benefited by picking up Aquitaine instead, it was maybe larger and richer but near-ungovernable, not geographically contiguous and of course a duchy owing feudal duty to the French king rather than a sovereign kingdom. The later Henry II's French possessions were a much better fit for Eleanor's, and vice versa.

A quick scan of the respective ancestries of Ramon and Eleanor shows no obvious kinship issues, bearing in mind that Eleanor's first marriage was annulled on consanguinity grounds. Then again, and to echo another thread, considering that Henry II and Eleanor were more closely related than she and Louis VII (and Louis' second wife was also a nearer relation to him than Eleanor was), perhaps the whole consanguinity thing was something of a scam and there wouldn't have been a problem in any case. But for the other reasons stated I can't see the match as likely.
 
No, that had stopped already. Although Ramon Berenguer IV was married aged only six with his wife five years younger still, by 1152 when Eleanor's second marriage took place their first child had been born. In May of that year actually, so they had got going by 1151 at least.

Crude joking aside, the identity of his wife was quite important, she was the heiress of Aragon. Can't see how Ramon etc. would have benefited by picking up Aquitaine instead, it was maybe larger and richer but near-ungovernable, not geographically contiguous and of course a duchy owing feudal duty to the French king rather than a sovereign kingdom. The later Henry II's French possessions were a much better fit for Eleanor's, and vice versa.

A quick scan of the respective ancestries of Ramon and Eleanor shows no obvious kinship issues, bearing in mind that Eleanor's first marriage was annulled on consanguinity grounds. Then again, and to echo another thread, considering that Henry II and Eleanor were more closely related than she and Louis VII (and Louis' second wife was also a nearer relation to him than Eleanor was), perhaps the whole consanguinity thing was something of a scam and there wouldn't have been a problem in any case. But for the other reasons stated I can't see the match as likely.

But, what if she was bethroted and married to Ramon Berenguer IV instead to the King of France? is this scenario possible?
 
I'm not sure whether "she" is Petronilla, Queen of Aragon, or Eleanor of Aquitaine, but I assume the latter. I can't see Louis VI (who was her guardian following her father's death, as well as her liege lord) letting such a prize as Eleanor escape his son; he left that to the boy himself, who with his monk-like ways had to be considered a most unsatisfactory husband. If you did mean Petronilla, the appeal of uniting Aragon to France would not have been evident to the Aragonese lords, I would say, whereas the attractions of Barcelona were obvious.

But sure Eleanor/Ramon is possible, just something of a stretch. I made a mistake in my post, seduced by the too-obvious joke and in a rush as I was going out, one should never post in a hurry as it always comes back to bite you. Ramon was actually around 24 when he married the infant Petronilla, not six. In age terms, Eleanor was clearly a much better fit, being a mere nine years younger than her husband. They actually married in the same year, Eleanor on July 25 1137 and Ramon on 11 August. In one way I am sure he would much rather have wed a beautiful 15-year-old girl than a baby. In dynastic terms, though, he was much better off with the latter despite the long wait ahead.
 
I'm not sure whether "she" is Petronilla, Queen of Aragon, or Eleanor of Aquitaine, but I assume the latter. I can't see Louis VI (who was her guardian following her father's death, as well as her liege lord) letting such a prize as Eleanor escape his son; he left that to the boy himself, who with his monk-like ways had to be considered a most unsatisfactory husband. If you did mean Petronilla, the appeal of uniting Aragon to France would not have been evident to the Aragonese lords, I would say, whereas the attractions of Barcelona were obvious.

But sure Eleanor/Ramon is possible, just something of a stretch. I made a mistake in my post, seduced by the too-obvious joke and in a rush as I was going out, one should never post in a hurry as it always comes back to bite you. Ramon was actually around 24 when he married the infant Petronilla, not six. In age terms, Eleanor was clearly a much better fit, being a mere nine years younger than her husband. They actually married in the same year, Eleanor on July 25 1137 and Ramon on 11 August. In one way I am sure he would much rather have wed a beautiful 15-year-old girl than a baby. In dynastic terms, though, he was much better off with the latter despite the long wait ahead.
If Alienor(Eleanor) married Ramon, what will happen? how will France react? And what are the consequences?
 
I dunno, I'm a genealogy and bad arithmetic guy, not history. But you've got a county on Spain's Mediterranean coast united to a duchy on France's Atlantic side. Probably efforts would concentrate on winning Eleanor's rightful inheritance of the County of Toulouse for her. This would at least mean that their joint possessions were contiguous, even if they did form a rather odd shape. With Ramon's kin holding Provence they would have a very powerful position in France, maybe they were a better fit than I thought. Maybe Louis VI would have thought so too.

Assuming Eleanor with the backing of her lords had defied Louis and married Ramon without his consent it could have happened, but there surely would have been war. Meanwhile Louis VII has to be found someone else to marry and so does Petronilla, each other not seeming likely. And so the ramifications would ramify.
 
What will be the consequence if this marriage occurs...I mean Eleanor of Aquitaine marries Ramon Berenguer IV instead of King Henry of England and Normandy after she divorced the King of France.

Very unlikely.
The pyrenean (transpyrenean and cispyrenean) counties and lords have a looong tradition of opposition against the aquitans and auvergnats ones, since the IX.
They knew that a marriage would be a new pretext for aquitains to reinforce their claims for Tolzan (not the region of Tolosa, Tolzan is approximativly the land between Gothia, Auvergne and Gascogne) and launch new ones in Pyrenees. No one wanted that. Really. (The fear and hate of Aquitains was one of the reasons that pushed the catalans to ally with Aragon).

If, in depsite of all that's holy and sacred, this marriage is made, you will have a sort of "Holy Alliance" uniting all lords from Lobregat up to Aude against Barcelona.
For the King of France reaction, you means apart secretly crying in his room when nobody watchs him?
Well he can pretend that is a reinforcement of his power, technically having more ties with its supposedly vassal in Barcelona.
 
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Can you qualify this question with an explanation as I can't think who he is?

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

Michel the Brave is the man who temporary unified the three romanians countries under a military coalition first, then by kicking out all sovereigns and giving the thrones to his sons.
So, He asked if Ramon Berenguer could do the same in Catalonia and Occitania.

The answer is no, not with this PoD. Too many contradictory interests, ressentment between Provencals, Tolzans, Aquitains, Catalans.
It's not that they wouldn't want it, but if one would be close to fulfill this, he would be attacked by his neighborood.
 
Michel the Brave is the man who temporary unified the three romanians countries under a military coalition first, then by kicking out all sovereigns and giving the thrones to his sons.
So, He asked if Ramon Berenguer could do the same in Catalonia and Occitania.

The answer is no, not with this PoD. Too many contradictory interests, ressentment between Provencals, Tolzans, Aquitains, Catalans.
It's not that they wouldn't want it, but if one would be close to fulfill this, he would be attacked by his neighborood.

I think the power base of the Empire resulting from the marriage between Eleanor and Raymond Berenguer IV should be in Aquitaine, I think Bordeaux would make a good power base.
 
I think the power base of the Empire resulting from the marriage between Eleanor and Raymond Berenguer IV should be in Aquitaine, I think Bordeaux would make a good power base.
I agree, an marriage between Barcelona and Aquitaine would result in a "crown of Aquitaine" as Aragon did.
And there's the problem. Aragon agreed to use a federative form, but Aquitaine had claims of sovereignty.

Because of it (and most probably the pressure under Tolosa to take the Tolzan and join Gothia and Aquitania), there's no way that the catalans lords would accept that.

It would result to a big flat refusal at best, avoiding Barcelone to have an effective rule apart on around the city itself (especially if Aquitaine is the center of power). But it could likely evolve into an alliance between catalans lords - Tolzan - and rivals of the Aquitains, maybe helped by the king of France, too happy to crush this sort of big counter-power from the beggining.

With this PoD, the marriage itself, the union between Aquitaine and Barcelona is nearly impossible at middle term.
 
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