WI:Eleanor of Aquitaine marries Ramon Berenguer II count of Provence

Ramon Berenguer II (Raymond Berengar) (c. 1135–1166) was the count of Provence from 1144 to his death. His uncle, Ramon Berenguer IV, Count of Barcelona, was the regent until 1157.
In 1144, Ramon's father, Count Berenguer Ramon, died in an offensive against Genoa and he inherited the county. He was immediately opposed by the family of Baux and it took the military action of his uncle, the count of Barcelona, in 1147 to secure his throne. The war with the Baux continued until the count of Barcelona's death in 1162.
In August 1161, he had travelled to Turin with his uncle obtain the confirmation of his countship in Provence from the Emperor Frederick I, for Provence was legally a fief of the Holy Roman Empire. There he met Richeza of Poland, the daughter of the exiled Polish high duke, Ladislaus II. He married her on 17 November and on the return journey, his uncle died.
He resumed the war with Genoa, but died trying to take Nice in the spring of 1166. His daughter, Douce, succeeded him, while widow Richeza married Raymond V of Toulouse.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramon_Berenguer_II,_Count_of_Provence
It seems that it is better for Eleanor of Aquitaine to marry him rather than King Henry II of England after her failed marriage with Louie of France, it seems that a marriage between them could make Occitania more united than OTL and create a new Kingdom of Aquitaine.
 

Razgriz 2K9

Banned
Maybe so, but you forget that it'll take more than just a marriage and personal union between Barcelona and Aquitaine to create an Occitan-Gascon Kingdom, if that is your intent. You still have the Counts of Toulouse to deal with for one thing, and for another thing, you will also have to deal with a King of France who would not want someone that powerful as his vassal.
 
I could see Henry of Anjou allying with King Louis, maybe marrying one of Eleanor's daughters. Louis' supports Henry getting England and Henry supports Louis against Eleanor/Ramon.
 
First problem: Eleanor is a Duchess Regnant and an ex-Queen. As a count with a disputed title, Ramon is pretty far beneath her socially. He's already at war with Toulouse on behalf of his uncle and cousin, so he brings nothing new to the table for Eleanor, and victory means endless bickering with his uncle and then his first cousin, King Alfonso of Aragon.

I don't see Eleanor agreeing to the match; even if Ramon is easily manipulable and accepts his inferior rank with good grace, she'll still be competing with her new in-laws in a way she never had to with Louis. She's probably better off staying single.

The King of France may not want the match, but he has no legal say in it and lacks the army to do something about it. Eleanor is not his vassal, she's a sovereign Duke. Ramon is an imperial vassal, not a French one. Ramon's uncle seems to have been able to destroy the counts of Toulouse pretty much by himself, so they don't seem likely to be trouble either.

In short, I don't see it because Eleanor figures "cousin Alfonso" will be a bigger pain in the butt and threat to her sovereignty than Louis of France ever was.
 
Or perhaps have the Count of Toulouse marry Eleanor instead of Ramon I think it would end the disputes between Eleanor and the Count of Toulouse.
 
First problem: Eleanor is a Duchess Regnant and an ex-Queen. As a count with a disputed title, Ramon is pretty far beneath her socially. He's already at war with Toulouse on behalf of his uncle and cousin, so he brings nothing new to the table for Eleanor, and victory means endless bickering with his uncle and then his first cousin, King Alfonso of Aragon.

I don't see Eleanor agreeing to the match; even if Ramon is easily manipulable and accepts his inferior rank with good grace, she'll still be competing with her new in-laws in a way she never had to with Louis. She's probably better off staying single.

The King of France may not want the match, but he has no legal say in it and lacks the army to do something about it. Eleanor is not his vassal, she's a sovereign Duke. Ramon is an imperial vassal, not a French one. Ramon's uncle seems to have been able to destroy the counts of Toulouse pretty much by himself, so they don't seem likely to be trouble either.

In short, I don't see it because Eleanor figures "cousin Alfonso" will be a bigger pain in the butt and threat to her sovereignty than Louis of France ever was.

Eleanor was his vassal - hence his protestations IRL when she married without obtaining his consent. As for Eleanor, she was scared of being kidnapped, raped and forced into a marriage with some ambitious knight. She'll also want to provide her realm with a male heir to prevent the Champagne-Blois getting their grubby hands on it.
 
Eleanor was his vassal - hence his protestations IRL when she married without obtaining his consent. As for Eleanor, she was scared of being kidnapped, raped and forced into a marriage with some ambitious knight. She'll also want to provide her realm with a male heir to prevent the Champagne-Blois getting their grubby hands on it.
I agree that a marriage between Aquitaine and Provence is not a good possibility because the House of Toulouse has claims to Provence which can be used as a reason for him to ally with France..

I kinda pity Eleanor, but I think the English marriage alliance marriage that she did was a big mistake, her decision is what led to most of Occitania (including those that were not her vassals to be a part of France completely), I think a marriage with Savoy, Castile or Navarre might be a better choice for her.
 
Last edited:
I agree that a marriage between Aquitaine and Provence is not a good possibility because the House of Toulouse has claims to Provence which can be used as a reason for him to ally with France..

I kinda pity Eleanor, but I think the English marriage alliance marriage that she did was a big mistake, her decision is what led to most of Occitania (including those that were not her vassals to be a part of France completely), I think a marriage with Savoy, Castile or Navarre might be a better choice for her.

That depends on how you define mistake and for whom. At the time king Henry II of England was the most powerful and prestigious candidate, so also from her perspective beforehand he was the best possible match.
Now in hindsight the outcome for Occitania might have been better otherwise, but back then it were dynastic considerations, which counted much more.
 
Top