WI: Eleanor of Aquitaine and Louis VII of France have male children

If Louis and Eleanor have three children IOTL but all three of them are sons ITTL, the Duchy of Aquitaine will be firmly under Capetian control thus expanding the royal authority of the Capetian dynasty much earlier here.

If that butterflies the Angevin empire has we know it, and Henry Fitzempress would be looking for another woman for a Queen Consort if Eleanor herself is not available ITTL.
 
If Louis and Eleanor have three children IOTL but all three of them are sons ITTL, the Duchy of Aquitaine will be firmly under Capetian control thus expanding the royal authority of the Capetian dynasty much earlier here.

If that butterflies the Angevin empire has we know it, and Henry Fitzempress would be looking for another woman for a Queen Consort if Eleanor herself is not available ITTL.
I mean, I don't think the Angevin empire would be butterflied away, just completely different tbh. Like a union?
That being said, I'm assuming Marie and Alix also exist, they just now have full brothers. Aquitaine will be under Capetian control and likely hate it, but they can't do diddly squat. I wonder if Henry Fitzempress goes for Eleanor's daughters in this timeline...
 
I think the Angevins/Plantagenet Kings of England would be better off here as they can concentrate on being the northern partner in any alliance against the French monarch.
 
I mean, I don't think the Angevin empire would be butterflied away, just completely different tbh. Like a union?
That being said, I'm assuming Marie and Alix also exist, they just now have full brothers. Aquitaine will be under Capetian control and likely hate it, but they can't do diddly squat. I wonder if Henry Fitzempress goes for Eleanor's daughters in this timeline...
With Eleanor and Henry NOT marrying most of the Angevin’s continental lands are gone (and is not guaranteed who Henry would be able to get overlordship over Brittany here)
 
A French King at the height of the Crusades with Aquitaine and Poitou at his hands is going to be unstopabble. This means that the French crown will inherit the Poitevin claim on the County of Toulouse and the Marquisate of Provence, which means, again, full Capetian supremacy over Southern France, and this means that the Capetians will look to solidify Ille-de-France, and the best way to do that is to secure Anjou, Champagne and Normandy. Champagne is bound to bow low and Henry will probably end up making a mistake. England has no chance at a continental empire in this timeline, the French Kings will just have that much power.
 
A French King at the height of the Crusades with Aquitaine and Poitou at his hands is going to be unstopabble. This means that the French crown will inherit the Poitevin claim on the County of Toulouse and the Marquisate of Provence, which means, again, full Capetian supremacy over Southern France, and this means that the Capetians will look to solidify Ille-de-France, and the best way to do that is to secure Anjou, Champagne and Normandy. Champagne is bound to bow low and Henry will probably end up making a mistake. England has no chance at a continental empire in this timeline, the French Kings will just have that much power.
This also puts an end to the possibility of Oil language being the Language of France due to Occitan being in its prime when Eleanor was Queen, making Northern France fragmented while Southern France United will make that a possibility.
 
A French King at the height of the Crusades with Aquitaine and Poitou at his hands is going to be unstopabble. This means that the French crown will inherit the Poitevin claim on the County of Toulouse and the Marquisate of Provence, which means, again, full Capetian supremacy over Southern France, and this means that the Capetians will look to solidify Ille-de-France, and the best way to do that is to secure Anjou, Champagne and Normandy. Champagne is bound to bow low and Henry will probably end up making a mistake. England has no chance at a continental empire in this timeline, the French Kings will just have that much power.
Wasn't Aquitaine in this period quite a handful for its dukes to manage?

https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/balkanised-france.188297/page-2#post-4303448 This is ten years old, so for all I know there's been updated information since I talked with Falastur about this, but I feel like "full Capetian supremacy over Southern France" in practice is going to be a lot harder to implement than de jure here.

It's certainly an interesting shift to things as far as relative to Henry, but I would personally be wary of assuming that the French crown has the power to compel every unruly vassal to be reliably subordinate in the territory it controls here - nevermind making moves on Champagne and beyond.
 
This also puts an end to the possibility of Oil language being the Language of France due to Occitan being in its prime when Eleanor was Queen, making Northern France fragmented while Southern France United will make that a possibility.
True. I feel that d'Oil is still going to be the biggest influence in French language simply due to the influence of Paris in the directionism of French culture, but, a France that suffers this is definetly going to be more diverse in it's linguistic origins.
 
Wasn't Aquitaine in this period quite a handful for its dukes to manage?

https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/balkanised-france.188297/page-2#post-4303448 This is ten years old, so for all I know there's been updated information since I talked with Falastur about this, but I feel like "full Capetian supremacy over Southern France" in practice is going to be a lot harder to implement than de jure here.

It's certainly an interesting shift to things as far as relative to Henry, but I would personally be wary of assuming that the French crown has the power to compel every unruly vassal to be reliably subordinate in the territory it controls here - nevermind making moves on Champagne and beyond.
It was, yes, that despite all their efforts they still depended often their own lieges.

Oh certainly, Aquitaine is not going to be an easy piece to bite off, and it is going to take a good few years to stabilise, but just Poitou and the security it gives to the French crown is probably going to make it easier. We're probably going to see many rebellious nobles be replaced with northern french nobles like it kind of happened OTL later. A move on Champagne is bound to happen, anyway. Let's remember that Philip Auguste essentially quadrupled the size of royal french territorry just by warring - and places that had as much and even more rebellious attitudes than Gascony and Aquitaine. Peacefully, I just assume it's going to be even faster.

It's bound to happen, a move on Champagne and a reaction to Henry, but it's probably going to take very long - around this "Louis" son, or even grandson.
 
True. I feel that d'Oil is still going to be the biggest influence in French language simply due to the influence of Paris in the directionism of French culture, but, a France that suffers this is definetly going to be more diverse in it's linguistic origins.
Actually, Saintonge and parts of Bourges which is in the Capetian Demesne were Occitan speaking prior to Eleanor marrying Henry II, retaining that means Occitan would naturally eclipse the Oil language and Sabir is also based on Occitan as well, Occitan areas being warzone between Capetians and Plantagenets changed that.
 
Oh certainly, Aquitaine is not going to be an easy piece to bite off, and it is going to take a good few years to stabilise, but just Poitou and the security it gives to the French crown is probably going to make it easier. We're probably going to see many rebellious nobles be replaced with northern french nobles like it kind of happened OTL later. A move on Champagne is bound to happen, anyway. Let's remember that Philip Auguste essentially quadrupled the size of royal french territorry just by warring - and places that had as much and even more rebellious attitudes than Gascony and Aquitaine. Peacefully, I just assume it's going to be even faster.

I'm not aware of anything suggesting "as much and even more rebellious attitudes" than Gascony or Aquitaine were a thing in the areas Philip Auguste II took OTL, especially in the sense of having to siege and re-siege castles to maintain control of their vassals.

But I think it's significant that a) the situation we see that expansion is with the monarchy noticeably stronger than in the 1150s already and b) with John's vassals often lukewarm towards choosing him over Philip. I can't say with absolute certainty here, but if Henry II and Richard I of England (with greater resources than Louis VII) struggled to keep Aquitaine and Gascony in order, I don't really think Louis VII or Alt-Louis VIII are achieving "unstoppable" status - even if Champagne and England-Normany-Anjou don't see an overstrained monarchy as something to take advantage of as opposed to something they're at the mercy of.
 
Henry may have a harder time fighting for his English crown without the additional funds that Eleanor brought in from their marriage. Louis, with heirs and spares now, could play Henry and Stephen off against one another while they wage war for the throne, probably to see if Louis could get some lands and castles back from whoever he supports.
 
Henry may have a harder time fighting for his English crown without the additional funds that Eleanor brought in from their marriage. Louis, with heirs and spares now, could play Henry and Stephen off against one another while they wage war for the throne, probably to see if Louis could get some lands and castles back from whoever he supports.
I wonder if Eleanor would still offer to help Henry, but Louis likely wouldn't like that
 
Henry may have a harder time fighting for his English crown without the additional funds that Eleanor brought in from their marriage. Louis, with heirs and spares now, could play Henry and Stephen off against one another while they wage war for the throne, probably to see if Louis could get some lands and castles back from whoever he supports.
Which also impacts Scotland as William the Lion was Earl of Northumbria until Henry II eventually bested him.
 
Which also impacts Scotland as William the Lion was Earl of Northumbria until Henry II eventually bested him.
David I was a supporter of Matilda in the first half of the war, I do know that Henry of Scotland was the Earl of Northumbria until his death in 1152, while William was still a boy. So that whole dynamic with Scotland changes too, I don't remember if David's support extended to Henry Fitzsmpress or not however.
 
Henry may have a harder time fighting for his English crown without the additional funds that Eleanor brought in from their marriage. Louis, with heirs and spares now, could play Henry and Stephen off against one another while they wage war for the throne, probably to see if Louis could get some lands and castles back from whoever he supports.
To be honest, given that England was desperate for peace after 18 years of civil war, I don't see that a son for Eleanor changes much for England in the long term. If anything, having Poitou and Aquitaine to pacify keeps the French out of the Anarchy altogether. And I know Henry and Eleanor first met when Henry was suggested as a groom for her eldest daughter, so I could see Henry marrying Marie here, although given how young she is in 1152, perhaps not.

Of course, Stephen has a daughter, also called Marie, (b.1136). She became a nun at Romsey Abbey some time between 1148 and 1155, but it is possible that Henry marries her as part of the Treaty of Wallingford here to unite the claims.
 
Of course, Stephen has a daughter, also called Marie, (b.1136). She became a nun at Romsey Abbey some time between 1148 and 1155, but it is possible that Henry marries her as part of the Treaty of Wallingford here to unite the claims.
Is it possible that Henry's position in negotiating that treaty was strengthened not just by Eustace's death, but also by Henry having already had a son born to secure the succession? Without being married to Eleanor, he is childless negotiating here before being presumably married to Marie of Blois?
 
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