Let's say that while Battle of Tewkesbury is still a total victory for Edward York and his supporters, Few Knights fighting for Henry Lancaster realized that the battle is lost before it's too late, and Lancasterian heir, Edward of Westminster, Prince of Wales is dragged off the battlefield(let's say that against his own will) by his own troops. Let's say that in this timeline Westminster will live long enoough to have a son. How different will be Yorkist restoration with previous king's son still living? How Edward IV will react to news that Lancasterian line is still a factor? What will happen with Henry VI in this scenerio? What with Anne Neville? Any strong candidate for wife nr. 2? How Edward's IV legitimacy will be in this situation? Will Gloucester dare to make a move against his brother's sons in situation, where there's still obvious rival to his rule?
WI: Edward of Westminester survives and have a son
- Thread starter Emperor Lucas I
- Start date
@RedKing can correct me, but the staunch Lancastrians are pretty much a spent force or superannuated. So I imagine Edward IV is still "sorta stable".
I don't see why EoW and Anne Neville would be split up. Logically, if Jazz Tudor could still grab Harry, then they can probably grab Anne and Marguerite d'Anjou to get away as well. So no need of a second wife.
Gloucester moving against his nephews is reading so far ahead that its practically a different book. First Dickon needs to marry, have a son, get rid of Clarence and his kids... All of which is in need of a crystal ball in 1470.
Now...rhe more immediate concern is the Neville inheritance. EoW can just as easily have no kids or his kids die young. And to prevent EoW or his son from landing in England, it's gonna be easier to attaint Warwick and redistribute his lands to George and Richard than for Edward IV to do what he did OTL.
Warwick will be attainted together with his brother and likely his wife so Edward will be able to give all their lands to his own supporters. Richard of Gloucester will get Middleham and Margaret of Scotland as wife
That's true. Perhaps I went to far into future with possible Richard's usurpation while Edward's IV life and in 1470's will be competly different with rival with claim so strong.
You know, assuming that EoW will escape England and return to exile in (most likely) France, he could find some someone more worthy for Prince of Wales. How much this title is worth without real power is different thing...
I'm sure that York will use his rival's absence in final phase of battle for propaganda - Westimnster will be portrayed as coward. Not sure that real version -a Prince dragged off from the battlefield by his own troops is much better for his reputation though. But they did saved his life... Makes me wonder what hill happen with them once Prince of Wales will reach safety.
If I am not mistaken Anne and Margaret where at an abbey or church away from the battlefield. So when Edward leaves with his men, there’s a possibility he is separated from Anne and Margaret. Assuming not, the group likely flee to Wales. There, Jasper has a force of about 5,000 men, so the Lancastrians can afford to plan what do next for a few weeks. There’d be elements pushing to stand and fight and others suggesting they flee. I could see fleeing winning out, especially when Edward IV moves to pursue them. They might try to bring as much of the army with them to the continet in alt.
Once in France, my immediate thought is that they’d plan for a new offensive against England, especially if the Bastard of Fauconberg rallies behind Westminster. The offensive would probably be two pronged, with a campaign in Wales led by the Tudors and a campaign in the South led by Oxford & friends. Who knows how that would go though.
The marriage between Edward and Anne is also consummated (if it wasn’t already), so that Lancastrian heirs can be produced. Edward IV probably tries to push France to hand over Westminster, though I’m not sure if he would go to war straight away. He still needs to re-secure his holding over England and his armies are exhausted. Plus, attacking France would only solidify their support for the Lancastrians.
Getting Edward and his kids would actually be fairly challenging too, since even if France agrees to hand them over, they could just flee to Lorraine, where René (and Nicholas of Anjou, if he survives) would more than likely protect him.
Richsrd of Gloucester would need to fall off his horse and hit his head to even try to usurp the throne in alt. The only way it would happen is if Edward IV still eats himself into an early coffin and Westminster is dead with a 3 year old son or only daughters surviving him.
Speaking of which, if Edward of Westminster only had daughters, would Edward IV agree to betroth one of them to his son (otl Edward V) in order to unite the claims and make peace? It would be interesting to see how that happens.
Once in France, my immediate thought is that they’d plan for a new offensive against England, especially if the Bastard of Fauconberg rallies behind Westminster. The offensive would probably be two pronged, with a campaign in Wales led by the Tudors and a campaign in the South led by Oxford & friends. Who knows how that would go though.
The marriage between Edward and Anne is also consummated (if it wasn’t already), so that Lancastrian heirs can be produced. Edward IV probably tries to push France to hand over Westminster, though I’m not sure if he would go to war straight away. He still needs to re-secure his holding over England and his armies are exhausted. Plus, attacking France would only solidify their support for the Lancastrians.
Getting Edward and his kids would actually be fairly challenging too, since even if France agrees to hand them over, they could just flee to Lorraine, where René (and Nicholas of Anjou, if he survives) would more than likely protect him.
Richsrd of Gloucester would need to fall off his horse and hit his head to even try to usurp the throne in alt. The only way it would happen is if Edward IV still eats himself into an early coffin and Westminster is dead with a 3 year old son or only daughters surviving him.
Speaking of which, if Edward of Westminster only had daughters, would Edward IV agree to betroth one of them to his son (otl Edward V) in order to unite the claims and make peace? It would be interesting to see how that happens.
Eh, I think there would be a few more willing to fight on with Westminster still kicking. Don’t know how large they’d be though. Oxford, the Tudors, Viscount Beaumont and the Courtenay are the only ones that strike me as being really loyal to Edward. Others might rally though, such as the Bastard of Fauconberg (who fought on past Tewkesbury in otl) and maybe Henry Holland (since he’s lost everything and doesn’t have much more to lose here). Edward IV’s reign might be a little more shaky with possibly another attempt to claim the throne in the 1470s. If he can defeat that, then he’s probably good.
It's sure funny how France supported son and grandson of a king that conquered their countrey and had many memeber of local nobility executed.
Also, England is still recovering from their last invasion attempt. After Castillon, it's hard to be suprised that they have enough.
That atl within atl. Also, I remember that there was already a thread about that.
Makes you wonder will Yorksist will play "Westminster is a coward" or "Westminster can't even hold his own knights in chech" card to ridicule his rival. And assuming that son of Lancaster will be born during his exile, how Edward IV will react to the news.
It’s medieval Europe, logic need not apply when inconvenient.
That’s true, it would certainly have put sour taste in the English people’s mouths about invading France if unnecessary. Though if Edward IV plays his cards right, he could get away with it .
Really? I never saw it, could you send a link?
Probably both, propaganda was never straightforward in this era. As for Edward IV’s reaction, probably annoyance if it’s in Lorraine, since he’ll have to put up with another claimant for a few years. If it’s in France, then he’ll downright panic, especially if Westminster’s dead. France would probably groom the boy to be a puppet king.
It's really a difficult question to answer. Edward IV was looking for a negotiated settlement with Margaret of Anjou in OTL 1470 and I feel like there are really solid arguments that the chaos of the Readeption would make him more interested in negotiations (would he really want to risk going through all that again?) and less interested (would he really be willing to forgive and forget quite so easily?).
The only thing that I think can be said for sure if that Edward IV doesn't murder Henry VI. Edward of Lancaster was much less a potent symbol as an exiled prince of Wales than he would be as an exiled king.
If Anne Neville died in childbirth or soon thereafter, I would love to see Anne of France at Edward of Lancaster's side. The WOTR had so many formidable women on both sides and I'd love to see another in the mix.
The only thing that I think can be said for sure if that Edward IV doesn't murder Henry VI. Edward of Lancaster was much less a potent symbol as an exiled prince of Wales than he would be as an exiled king.
If Anne Neville died in childbirth or soon thereafter, I would love to see Anne of France at Edward of Lancaster's side. The WOTR had so many formidable women on both sides and I'd love to see another in the mix.
"The enemy of my enemy is my friend" was as true in the 15th century as it was when Kauṭilya first wrote it and as true as it is now. (See: The U.S. and the mujahideen in Afghanistan.) You know what they say about the more things change ...
Edward IV with another stressor is quite likely to still "eat himself into an early coffin" especially as Westminster's survival will bring a second wind to Lancastrian support. Gloucester, well, he is certainly behind his brothers and Westminster in this scenario
The thing is, with Lancaster still around, Edward isn't exactly "safe" on the throne; stable, perhaps, but not safe, so he probably would still have skirmishes and things to fight on occasions, keeping him fitter.
Oh yes, I’m aware of that timeline. I was referring to one where Westminster was kicking and had daughters.
I don’t see Anne marrying Westminster unless he gets the throne. Louis XI wouldn’t marry his daughter to an exile. Marie of Orleans and Anne of Savoy are more likely French brides for Westminster in exile. Though, seeing how Anne of France gets involved would be very interesting.
As @Tudorfan said, Edward only ate so much food because he felt secure on the throne. Here, he has a threat that’s going to keep him alert.
Oh, I'm not saying it's likely, just that it would be fun to see. Edward having this imposing mother and this highly intelligent and capable wife would be great drama.
Especially if after Tewkesbury, Westminster will try to prove himself both as military commander and politician. His ambition could be problematic for all of his supporters, especially if he will have knigts that saved him accused for disloyalty and execusted, or try to push for invasion as soon as possible.
You know, on the other hand, stress eating is a thing
Also, York could do something else that will cause him problems. Also, Henry is perfect hostage - in case of Lancasterian return, Edward York could execute/murder Henry and try to defend himself with "I had no choice" or even "it's all Westminster's vault - he is responsible for his father's death."
No he wouldn't - that is perfect reason for revolt. Killing of anointed king was very shocking even decades later with Henry VIII/Anne Boleyn
I mean, it’s possible, but knowing Edward he’d be more likely to respond vigorously rather than sit down and eat a few dozen geese. Maybe he stays up all night and becomes sleep deprived?You know, on the other hand, stress eating is a thing
This would be a terrible move. Edward of Westminster would be a much more potent Lancastrian claimant than Henry VI was. He could be like Edward IV in the 1460s, a charming and brave warrior in contrast to his gloomy father. This could win over a few neutrals. Plus, the Lancastrians could then accuse Edward of Regicide and claim that anything bad that happens to him is god’s dissatisfaction. There’s a reason Henry VI was only killed after Westminster was dead.