WI: Edward IV is Warwick's pawn

So Edward IV is ITTL weak person, easy to manipulate, and a man who dominates him is obviously Richard Neville, earl of Warwick. Edward IV, who follows Warwick advises, would not marry Elizabeth Woodville (thus Woodville family is not rising to OTL position) and follows also his advises in foreign policy (so is more pro-French, less pro-Burgundian). Warwick has absolutely no reason to switch to Lancastrian side. So restoration of Henry VI is not very likely. How would situation develop? Strong resentment against Neville family is obvious thing. Relations with France would spoil anyway, that is unavoidable. What would happen with Margaret d'Anjou and Edward of Westminster? Perhaps line of Lancastrian pretenders is estabilished in France and haunts future Yorkist monarchs of England?
 
So Edward IV is ITTL weak person, easy to manipulate, and a man who dominates him is obviously Richard Neville, earl of Warwick. Edward IV, who follows Warwick advises, would not marry Elizabeth Woodville (thus Woodville family is not rising to OTL position) and follows also his advises in foreign policy (so is more pro-French, less pro-Burgundian). Warwick has absolutely no reason to switch to Lancastrian side. So restoration of Henry VI is not very likely. How would situation develop? Strong resentment against Neville family is obvious thing. Relations with France would spoil anyway, that is unavoidable. What would happen with Margaret d'Anjou and Edward of Westminster? Perhaps line of Lancastrian pretenders is estabilished in France and haunts future Yorkist monarchs of England?

Well George is marrying Isabel without any qualms in this scenario! And a different wife will of course affect Edward's kids, so he might have a son earlier than OTL too, but yes, the Warwicks will be hated for controlling the King. I could see Edward facing more rebellions, if he's a weak enough King to be compared to Richard II or Edward II.
 
The real crux is when Edward IV the Weak dies. His kid probably won't be as malleable when he becomes an adult, so you either get some kind of civil war or coup with the Warwicks backing the other side (possibly the Lancastrians) or else the Warwicks accept falling back to a lesser place.
 
The likely Queen of England in this scenario is Bona of Savoy, sister-in-law of Louis XI. Here's a possible family list in this scenario

Edward IV (b.1442 r.1461 d.1483) m. Bona of Savoy (b.1449 m. 1464 d.1503)
  1. Edward V (1466 - 1503) m. Anne of Brittany
    1. Margaret (1492 - 1542) m. Richard, Duke of York and Norfolk (also known as Richard III)
      1. Edward VI (1508 - 1573)
      2. Richard, Duke of Bedford (1511 - 1520)
    2. Bona (1494 - 1503)
    3. Anne (1497 - 1500)
    4. Cecily (1499 -1500)
    5. Isabelle (1501 - 1505)
    6. Edward, Prince of Wales (1502)
  2. Richard, Duke of York (1468 - 1493) m. Anne de Mowbray, Countess of Norfolk
    1. Richard, Duke of York and Norfolk (1489 - 1519) m. Margaret of England
      1. see above
    2. Elizabeth (1491 - 1500)
    3. Edward (1493 - 1500)
  3. George, Duke of Bedford (1469 - 1472)
  4. Anne (1472 - 1510) m. James IV of Scotland
    1. Margaret (1491 - 1530). m. Louis, Duke of Orleans
      1. Claude (1508 - 1536)
      2. Renee (1510 - 1551)
      3. Charles (1512 - 1600)
      4. Louis (1515 - 1516)
    2. James, Duke of Rothesay (1492 - 1493)
    3. Edward, Duke of Rothesay (1495)
    4. James V (1496 - 1564) m. Anne de la Tour d'Auvergne
      1. James (1512 - 1513)
      2. James (1514 - 1550)
      3. Anne (1514 - 1569)
      4. John (1517 - 1519)
      5. Joan (1520 - 1523)
      6. Alexander (1522 - 1582)
      7. Robert (1522 - 1524)
    5. Alexander, Duke of Ross (1500 - 1501)
    6. Bona (1504 - 1505)
    7. Richard, Duke of Ross (1504 - 1594) m. Lady Elizabeth Douglas
      1. Anne (1525 - 1532)
      2. Richard (1528)
      3. stillborn son (1528)
    8. Robert, Duke of Edinburgh (1508 - 1581) m. Lady Helen Hamilton
      1. Robert (1534 - 1536)
      2. James, Duke of Edinburgh (1536 - 1596)
      3. Janet (1538 - 1583)
  5. Cecily (1474 - 1489)
  6. Mary (1476)
  7. Louis, Duke of Bedford (1478 - 1480)
 
Is George stupid enough to try something without father-in-law Warwick backing him up?

You'd imagine John Neville keeps the Earldom of Northumberland here.

Would Warwick push for a Neville match for any of Edward's kids? There was obviously that thing between Elizabeth of York and John's son George Neville (nominally Duke of Bedford) IOTL.

You'd imagine the Lancastrians might try something when Edward IV dies, especially if there's tension between Edward V and Warwick (and their respective supporters), but they've been in exile for over two decades by that point so their level of support on the ground might be limited. Much would depend on who in England is willing to flip for them (Buckingham, if they promise him enough? Warwick's cousins from the senior Neville branch, still ticked off at the inheritance issue?).
 
Is George stupid enough to try something without father-in-law Warwick backing him up?

You'd imagine John Neville keeps the Earldom of Northumberland here.

Would Warwick push for a Neville match for any of Edward's kids? There was obviously that thing between Elizabeth of York and John's son George Neville (nominally Duke of Bedford) IOTL.

You'd imagine the Lancastrians might try something when Edward IV dies, especially if there's tension between Edward V and Warwick (and their respective supporters), but they've been in exile for over two decades by that point so their level of support on the ground might be limited. Much would depend on who in England is willing to flip for them (Buckingham, if they promise him enough? Warwick's cousins from the senior Neville branch, still ticked off at the inheritance issue?).

My question would be what would happen to Richard and Anne Neville. Would Warwick still push for that match, wedding his ward to his daughter, or would he realise that he would need to marry Richard off to a different noble family, if only to try to broaden Edward's power base and hide the fact that the Warwicks are the hated power behind the throne? And if so, who do Richard and Anne marry ITTL?
 
My question would be what would happen to Richard and Anne Neville. Would Warwick still push for that match, wedding his ward to his daughter, or would he realise that he would need to marry Richard off to a different noble family, if only to try to broaden Edward's power base and hide the fact that the Warwicks are the hated power behind the throne? And if so, who do Richard and Anne marry ITTL?

There are probably more suitable matches for Anne without the Woodville girls clogging up the marriage market, unsure of the names and the likelihood of Warwick looking favourably upon them.

There's also George to consider, and the potential for him and whoever marries Anne to feud over the division of Warwick's inheritance- having his sons-in-law at each other's throats would be bad for Warwick's regime.

If he doesn't marry Anne, you'd imagine they'd try to set Richard up with some advantageous heiress (thereby providing him with land without diminishing the royal holdings)- Cecily Bonville was a big heiress IOTL (her father and grandfather having been executed at Wakefield), and was consequently paired with the king's stepson Thomas Grey. She's also Warwick's niece, so there's still a family connection there. Would a Baroness be an appropriate match for Richard, though?
 
There are probably more suitable matches for Anne without the Woodville girls clogging up the marriage market, unsure of the names and the likelihood of Warwick looking favourably upon them.

There's also George to consider, and the potential for him and whoever marries Anne to feud over the division of Warwick's inheritance- having his sons-in-law at each other's throats would be bad for Warwick's regime.

If he doesn't marry Anne, you'd imagine they'd try to set Richard up with some advantageous heiress (thereby providing him with land without diminishing the royal holdings)- Cecily Bonville was a big heiress IOTL (her father and grandfather having been executed at Wakefield), and was consequently paired with the king's stepson Thomas Grey. She's also Warwick's niece, so there's still a family connection there. Would a Baroness be an appropriate match for Richard, though?
From looking at things I suspect it's more the size of the inheritance than title at this point. A title is easy to come by for a royal English prince.
 
Based on the above discussions here are some potential ATL descendants for George & Isabel, Richard & Cecily Bonville, and Anne Neville & Henry Stafford

George, Duke of Clarence (1449 - 1486) m. Isabel Neville, Countess of Warwick (1451 - 1476)
  1. Margaret (1470 - 1540) m. George Talbot, Earl of Shrewsbury
    1. John (1488 - 1496)
  2. Edward (1473 - 1476)
  3. Richard, Duke of Clarence (1475 - 1499) m. Anne St. Leger
    1. George, Duke of Clarence (1496 - 1504)
    2. Anne, Countess of Warwick (1497 - 1531) m. Edmund of Gloucester
      1. Anne (1513 - 1587)
      2. Richard (1517 - 1540)
      3. Cecily (1517 - 1541)
      4. Isabel (1520 - 1529)
      5. Katherine (1523 - 1525)
      6. Margaret (1526 - 1538)
      7. Joan (1529 - 1531)
      8. Eleanor (1531 - 1532)
    3. Isabel (1498 - 1506)
  4. George (1476 - 1477)
Richard, Duke of Gloucester (1452 - 1504) m. Cecily Bonville (1460 - 1529)
  1. Cecily (1476 - 1542) m. William Fitzalan, 18th Earl of Arundel
    1. Thomas (1495 - 1526)
    2. Richard (1498 - 1503)
    3. Cecily (1500 - 1569)
    4. Joan (1501 - 1568)
    5. William (1503 - 1510)
    6. Edward (1503 - 1537)
    7. John (1506 - 1512)
    8. Margaret (1509 - 1593)
    9. Katherine (1512 - 1562)
    10. Edmund (1514 - 1518)
  2. Edward (1477)
  3. Katherine (1478 - 1542) m. Henry Percy, Earl of Northumberland
    1. Henry (1500 - 1570)
    2. Maud (1502 - 1525)
    3. Cecily (1504 - 1509)
    4. Katherine (1506 - 1575)
    5. Margaret (1508 - 1533)
  4. Bona (1481 - 1498)
  5. Richard (1483 - 1489)
  6. Margaret (1485 - 1510) m. George, Baron Hastings
    1. Margaret (1510 - 1515)
  7. George (1488 - 1540) m. Lady Margaret Stafford
    1. Anne (1505 - 1529)
    2. Richard (1507 - 1549)
  8. William (1492 - 1506)
  9. Edmund (1494 - 1535) m. Anne, Countess of Warwick
    1. Anne (1513 - 1587)
    2. Richard (1517 - 1540)
    3. Cecily (1517 - 1541)
    4. Isabel (1520 - 1529)
    5. Katherine (1523 - 1525)
    6. Margaret (1526 - 1538)
    7. Joan (1529 - 1531)
    8. Eleanor (1531 - 1532)
  10. Stillborn daughter (1498)
  11. John (1501 - 1503)
Anne Neville (1456 - 1485) m. Henry Stafford, Duke of Buckingham (1455 - 1500)
  1. Edward (1477)
  2. Anne (1481 - 1485)
  3. Margaret (1483 - 1507) m. George, Duke of Gloucester
    1. Anne (1505 - 1529)
    2. George (1507 - 1549)
  4. Isabel (1485 - 1492)
 
Meanwhile, what would happen with Lancastrians? Henry VI is imprisioned by Yorkists, but his wife and son live in exile. And as long as Edward of Westminster is alvie House of York can't feel secure on the throne.
 
Meanwhile, what would happen with Lancastrians? Henry VI is imprisioned by Yorkists, but his wife and son live in exile. And as long as Edward of Westminster is alvie House of York can't feel secure on the throne.
Well according to the wiki (unreliable though it may be) says Margaret Stewart was once engaged to Edward of Westminster, so maybe we see the court in exile stay in Scotland rather then moving across the channel.
 

I don't envy Warwick here- the poor bloke is trying to manage Clarence and Buckingham as his sons-in-law.

If they manage to refrain from assaulting each other over the partition of the Warwick inheritance, you'd imagine at some point brothers-in-law George and Bucky might cook up some stupid scheme to satisfy their ambitions and hold on to power.

Though with some of the marriages of the younger generation there, you could see a Richard/George/Bucky triumvirate trying to hold things together after Warwick's death, at least until they invariably start backstabbing each other.
 
I don't envy Warwick here- the poor bloke is trying to manage Clarence and Buckingham as his sons-in-law.

If they manage to refrain from assaulting each other over the partition of the Warwick inheritance, you'd imagine at some point brothers-in-law George and Bucky might cook up some stupid scheme to satisfy their ambitions and hold on to power.

Though with some of the marriages of the younger generation there, you could see a Richard/George/Bucky triumvirate trying to hold things together after Warwick's death, at least until they invariably start backstabbing each other.

Well going off of my descendants' lists, Richard will live the longest of the trio, although by only a few years, and the infighting likely becomes between Richard's two sons: George, Duke of Gloucester and Edmund, Earl of Warwick, who both end up marrying the heir to half the Neville fortune (Lady Margaret Stafford inheriting directly from her mother, Anne, Countess of Warwick inheriting from her brother and aunt).

A major fight I could see is if Buckingham remarries after Anne Neville's death. Lady Margaret is technically her mother's heir and betrothed to the future Duke of Gloucester but I could see arguments by Buckingham trying to keep the inheritance to pass onto kids from his second wife.
 
A major fight I could see is if Buckingham remarries after Anne Neville's death. Lady Margaret is technically her mother's heir and betrothed to the future Duke of Gloucester but I could see arguments by Buckingham trying to keep the inheritance to pass onto kids from his second wife.
Buckingham will be unable to do that. Any land of Anne will go to Margaret at her mother’s death (unless Buckingham has some of them for the duration of his life who after his death will still go to Margaret).
Anne St Leger inheriting the lands of her mother’s previous husband after the death’s of her half-sister Anne Holland and mother Anne of York was a big scandal
Same for Richard of Shrewsbury, Duke of York keeping the lands of his wife Anne, Countess of Norfolk after her death.
 
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A major fight I could see is if Buckingham remarries after Anne Neville's death. Lady Margaret is technically her mother's heir and betrothed to the future Duke of Gloucester but I could see arguments by Buckingham trying to keep the inheritance to pass onto kids from his second wife.
Buckingham will be unable to do that. Any land of Anne will go to Margaret at her mother’s death (unless Buckingham has some of them for the duration of his life who after his death will still go to Margaret).
Anne St Leger inheriting the lands of her mother’s previous husband after the death’s of her half-sister Anne Holland and mother Anne of York was a big scandal
Same for Richard of Shrewsbury, Duke of York keeping the lands of his wife Anne, Countess of Norfolk after her death.[/QUOTE]

Good to know. As for Anne St.Ledger, I assume her marrying the King's nephew/cousin wins her some sort of favor in court.
 
Good to know. As for Anne St.Ledger, I assume her marrying the King's nephew/cousin wins her some sort of favor in court.

All the biggest scandals of Edward I ‘s favoritism were relative to his own relatives (and not in-laws). I do not know if with a puppet Edward IV we will see Anne St.Ledger as big heiress here.
In OTL Anne of York (Edward IV’s own sister) had married the Lancastrian Henry Holland, Duke of Exeter and had a daughter by him (Anne Holland). Exeter was attainted by Edward IV but his estates instead of being confiscated in favor of the crown were given to his wife (again Anne of York, sister of King Edward) with remainder to their daughter Anne Holland. Duchess Anne then separated by her husband in 1464 and divorced from him in 1472. Around 1474 Anne of York remarried to Thomas St.Ledger (and Edward IV around 1467 had extended the remainder on Exeter’s former lands (who originally was only in favor of Anne Holland) to his sister Anne of York and any issue of her body making them inheritable by any children of Anne from a new marriage). Anne of York died in 1476 giving birth to her second daughter Anne St.Ledger (Anne Holland, who had married Dorset, Elizabeth Woodville’s eldest son, was already dead) who thus became the heiress of the former Exeter’s estates.

Here with Edward being so weak willed I doubt who Anne of York’s second daughter will be ever the eventual heiress of the Exeter estates
 
All the biggest scandals of Edward I ‘s favoritism were relative to his own relatives (and not in-laws). I do not know if with a puppet Edward IV we will see Anne St.Ledger as big heiress here.
In OTL Anne of York (Edward IV’s own sister) had married the Lancastrian Henry Holland, Duke of Exeter and had a daughter by him (Anne Holland). Exeter was attainted by Edward IV but his estates instead of being confiscated in favor of the crown were given to his wife (again Anne of York, sister of King Edward) with remainder to their daughter Anne Holland. Duchess Anne then separated by her husband in 1464 and divorced from him in 1472. Around 1474 Anne of York remarried to Thomas St.Ledger (and Edward IV around 1467 had extended the remainder on Exeter’s former lands (who originally was only in favor of Anne Holland) to his sister Anne of York and any issue of her body making them inheritable by any children of Anne from a new marriage). Anne of York died in 1476 giving birth to her second daughter Anne St.Ledger (Anne Holland, who had married Dorset, Elizabeth Woodville’s eldest son, was already dead) who thus became the heiress of the former Exeter’s estates.

Here with Edward being so weak willed I doubt who Anne of York’s second daughter will be ever the eventual heiress of the Exeter estates

Isn't it entirely possible Anne Holland lives here, and the whole issue is averted? With no Woodvilles/Greys about, Warwick would try to set her up with someone favourable to him ITTL- his nephew George, perhaps?

Henry Holland's fate is also different here, with no Readeption or expedition to France. Does he spend the rest of his life skulking around the continent, or... ?
 
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