WI: Edward II Marries Isabel of Castile

[Kellan Sullivan]

Happy New Year! May it be a good one for all of you reading this.

In 1302, the king of Castile put a betrothal to King Edward I for a marriage between their children, Edward II and Isabel (the former queen of Aragon, who was divorced at age 12 by her much older husband).

What if such a marriage had gone through? Assume for intents and purposes that Isabelle de France is like her older sisters and dies in infancy.

@VVD0D95 @isabella @ByzantineLover @mcdnab @The Professor

 

[ByzantineLover]

In my opinion, the best chance would be the brief window between Edward I's death on July 7th, 1307 and Edward II's marriage to Isabella of France on January 25th, 1308. To quote Wikipedia "Edward probably hoped that the marriage would strengthen his position in Gascony and bring him much needed funds.[9] The final negotiations, however, proved challenging: Edward and Philip IV did not like each other, and the French King drove a hard bargain over the size of Isabella's dower and the details of the administration of Edward's lands in France.[93]"

So suppose Edward and Philip fall out over the dowry and Gascony, Edward could take the opportunity to marry Isabel of Castile, since she wasn't married to Duke John III of Brittany until 1310, and thus secure his southern flank and gain an ally against France.

 

[VVD0D95]

o think of this marriage happens it would potentially strengthen Edwards hand in Gascony by giving him an ally to his south. It might also give him a happier marriage and also butterflies the technical clause of the Hundred Years’ War and fundamentally changed the relationship between crown and parliament as a result

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

In my opinion, the best chance would be the brief window between Edward I's death on July 7th, 1307 and Edward II's marriage to Isabella of France on January 25th, 1308. To quote Wikipedia "Edward probably hoped that the marriage would strengthen his position in Gascony and bring him much needed funds.[9] The final negotiations, however, proved challenging: Edward and Philip IV did not like each other, and the French King drove a hard bargain over the size of Isabella's dower and the details of the administration of Edward's lands in France.[93]"

So suppose Edward and Philip fall out over the dowry and Gascony, Edward could take the opportunity to marry Isabel of Castile, since she wasn't married to Duke John III of Brittany until 1310, and thus secure his southern flank and gain an ally against France.

While this is true would they still have the difficult relationship if there is no Isabelle to haggle a dowry over? Although, I suppose, it could just as easily be Edward forcing his hand or Philippe refusing to cough up/reseizing parts of Marguerite's dowry.

o think of this marriage happens it would potentially strengthen Edwards hand in Gascony by giving him an ally to his south. It might also give him a happier marriage and also butterflies the technical clause of the Hundred Years’ War and fundamentally changed the relationship between crown and parliament as a result

Unfortunately a happier marriage might not make him any less of an earlier Richard II FWIG. I also don't know what sort of political player Isabel was/is likely to be? What personality she had. Is she the sort that she can talk Edward out of a bad decision? Will he listen to her any more than he did to Isabelle?

 

[VVD0D95]

While this is true would they still have the difficult relationship if there is no Isabelle to haggle a dowry over? Although, I suppose, it could just as easily be Edward forcing his hand or Philippe refusing to cough up/reseizing parts of Marguerite's dowry.



Unfortunately a happier marriage might not make him any less of an earlier Richard II FWIG. I also don't know what sort of political player Isabel was/is likely to be? What personality she had. Is she the sort that she can talk Edward out of a bad decision? Will he listen to her any more than he did to Isabelle?

Hmm this is a fair point, the wiki on her is pretty sparse. The only information I can gleam is she had no kids with her second husband, so that might be an interesting consequence if the issue lay with her.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Hmm this is a fair point, the wiki on her is pretty sparse. The only information I can gleam is she had no kids with her second husband, so that might be an interesting consequence if the issue lay with her.

To be fair, she was 27 when she married the duke of Brittany and he had no children with his other two wives either.

 

[VVD0D95]

To be fair, she was 27 when she married the duke of Brittany and he had no children with his other two wives either.

This is true, so it does seem the issue was with him.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

This is true, so it does seem the issue was with him.

Which opens up the question of Edward's reign. I imagine the minute Isabel pops out a prince of Wales, her position is secure. Edward might be more agreeable to her given the closeness of their ages (IIRC he remarked on this OTL - and had a better relationship with his stepmom than his wife). She'll be "better regarded" in England than her French counterpart. But will she be able to serve as a brake on some of his more hare-brained notions?

 

[Ivan Lupo]

If Isabella of France has died in infancy as Kellan Sullivan postulates, there's very little stopping Edward from marrying Isabel of Castile as early 1297, when Edward would be of marriage age. Isabel's marriage to James II of Aragon was annulled in 1295, incidentally the same year Isabella of France was born. In fact, that betrothal could happen fairly soon, as Sancho of Castile had died the same year and Fernando IV would be ruling only through a regent, which I believe was his mother Maria de Molína.

Edward I would have a lot more leverage in these negotiations and would want to extract a large dowry and direct military aid. Maria needs this marriage to happen more than Edward does, as it would further legitimize her son's position on the throne over the claim of Alfonso de la Cerda. If Edward needs allies against France to secure Gascony, his maternal cousin Charles II of Naples also holds vast possessions in Provençe, Anjou, and Maine and has a pair of young, unbetrothed daughters close to Prince Edward's age in Eleanor and Maria, and another one Beatrice, born incidentally in 1295. In other words, Edward has options, though Maria's big advantage is that of immediacy; Prince Edward could marry Isabel very quickly, much sooner than he could marry any of Charles' daughters for instance.

 

[isabella]

If Isabella of France has died in infancy as Kellan Sullivan postulates, there's very little stopping Edward from marrying Isabel of Castile as early 1297, when Edward would be of marriage age. Isabel's marriage to James II of Aragon was annulled in 1295, incidentally the same year Isabella of France was born. In fact, that betrothal could happen fairly soon, as Sancho of Castile had died the same year and Fernando IV would be ruling only through a regent, which I believe was his mother Maria de Molína.

Edward I would have a lot more leverage in these negotiations and would want to extract a large dowry and direct military aid. Maria needs this marriage to happen more than Edward does, as it would further legitimize her son's position on the throne over the claim of Alfonso de la Cerda. If Edward needs allies against France to secure Gascony, his maternal cousin Charles II of Naples also holds vast possessions in Provençe, Anjou, and Maine and has a pair of young, unbetrothed daughters close to Prince Edward's age in Eleanor and Maria, and another one Beatrice, born incidentally in 1295. In other words, Edward has options, though Maria's big advantage is that of immediacy; Prince Edward could marry Isabel very quickly, much sooner than he could marry any of Charles' daughters for instance.

Then Eleanor or Maria would be the better match... marrying his son quickly was never a priority for Edward I, if he can have a better daughter-in-law

 

[Ivan Lupo]

Then Eleanor or Maria would be the better match... marrying his son quickly was never a priority for Edward I, if he can have a better daughter-in-law

Edward might be able to extract a larger dowry out of Castile for Isabel, and if he's having problems in Gascony with Philippe, a Castilian alliance not just secures the southern border, but also threatens Navarre, which Philippe is co-king of. The immediate need for military support and a possibly enormous, instant inflow of cash to the Exchequer may he more of what Edward needs politically. However, a marriage with either Eleanor or Maria is likely a better match in the long run, if Edward could further turn Naples away from France and towards England.

 

[Ivan Lupo]

Another thing, Charles II might not need England quite as much as Castile would in this case. Edward recently had a long alliance with his brother-in-law Alfonso X, but the line of Sancho IV and his minor son Fernando IV having usurped the succession from Alfonso's preferred choice of the line of his late son Fernando de la Cerda and his grandson Alfonso. Castile just lost a vital ally in Aragon when Isabel was repudiated and the specter of Alfonso coming in to press his claim would be a very stark reality for Dowager Queen Maria de Molína, so she badly needs strong new allies at nearly any cost.

With all these options, never underestimate the allure of a side that really wants your friendship and are far more pliable to your needs, as opposed to a side that itself has more options and more pressing needs. Eleanor and Maria are far down the line of succession to any part of Charles' domains, so any of issue of Prince Edward likey won't get to inherit any further lands. I don't know how willing Charles would be to get on Philippe's bad side for the sake of forming a marriage alliance with Edward, not without guarantees that Edward may or may not be able to deliver on. In OTL, the marriages Charles did make for these two helped his political situation with the Crown of Aragon and at least secured his claim to at least Naples, his father having lost Sicily. Aragon was looking to seek an alliance with France, so Charles needed peace with Aragon and to remain good with France.

 

[isabella]

Castile will need to give Isabel a very large dowry AND keep her rights of succession intact then for being attractive for Edward but the match can go ahead if Anjou has not interest in an English match for his daughters

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Castile will need to give Isabel a very large dowry AND keep her rights of succession intact then for being attractive for Edward but the match can go ahead if Anjou has not interest in an English match for his daughters

I wonder how likely Charles is to piss Philippe off (since if he's lacking daughters, Philippe would probably offer his Valois nieces, no?) by offering one of his daughters? And would Edward be willing to take it upon himself to lift a finger to help Charles if Philippe turns on him as retaliation for the match?

 

[edgeworthy]

In Braveheart the female lead is historically inaccurately played by Assumpta Serna instead of Sophie Marceau?

 

[Ivan Lupo]

I wonder how likely Charles is to piss Philippe off (since if he's lacking daughters, Philippe would probably offer his Valois nieces, no?) by offering one of his daughters? And would Edward be willing to take it upon himself to lift a finger to help Charles if Philippe turns on him as retaliation for the match?

I'm inclined to believe that any concern of what Philippe would think about Charles marrying one of his daughters to Prince Edward would be a secondary consideration compared to more immediate and pressing regional matters where an English alliance just doesn't do much for him. His Kingdom of Sicily (Naples) has recently lost Sicily to Aragon, so he needs to do something to secure that theater of his kingdom. Edward doesn't have leverage in any negotiations with Charles, whereas he would have significant leverage negotiating with Maria de Molína and Castile. Alfonso de la Cerda has French backing and Aragon is in a French alliance as well. She needs a marriage immediately and would give up a lot right away to make it happen.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

This is something I was wondering (and too lazy to make a new thread): Alphonso, earl of Chester was engaged to Margareta of Holland before his death (she doesn't seem to have long survived it though), the Hollands were also in line to inherit the Scots throne (ICR the exact positioning), AFAIK. But had Margareta survived and things in Scotland still went their OTL route, would Edward I had married her to Edward II?

 

[VVD0D95]

This is something I was wondering (and too lazy to make a new thread): Alphonso, earl of Chester was engaged to Margareta of Holland before his death (she doesn't seem to have long survived it though), the Hollands were also in line to inherit the Scots throne (ICR the exact positioning), AFAIK. But had Margareta survived and things in Scotland still went their OTL route, would Edward I had married her to Edward II?

If the maid of Norway is dead, perhaps though she’s got a pretty distant claim compared to Balliol

 

[TennesseeDave]

Happy New Year! May it be a good one for all of you reading this.

In 1302, the king of Castile put a betrothal to King Edward I for a marriage between their children, Edward II and Isabel (the former queen of Aragon, who was divorced at age 12 by her much older husband).

What if such a marriage had gone through? Assume for intents and purposes that Isabelle de France is like her older sisters and dies in infancy.

@VVD0D95 @isabella @ByzantineLover @mcdnab @The Professor

That would have been a better marriage for Edward ll and her and her lover wouldn't have had someone ram a hot poker up his rectum🤢

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

If the maid of Norway is dead, perhaps though she’s got a pretty distant claim compared to Balliol

True. But I was thinking the effects if her brother still dies childless (some say he was murdered by his anti-English uncle), then I could imagine Longshanks is going to push for his daughter-in-law's right to succeed no? Anglo-Dutch union a few centuries agead of schedule