WI: Eduard, Count Palatine Has a Surviving Son?

[JonasResende]

So, I see Pfalz survival threads with his brother, Rupert, duke of Cumberland, and nephew, Elector Karl II, but did you know that Eduard had a short-lived/stillborn son by his wife, Anna Gonzaga? The boy was born on the 27 December 1650 and died at some point in the course of 1651.

So, let's assume the family line up looks like this:

Eduard, Count Palatine of the Rhine (b.1624) m: 1645 Anna Gonzaga (b.1616)

Luise Marie (b.1647)
Anne Henriëtte (b.1648)
Friedrich Emanuel Ludwig (cause he's born during the 12 Days of Christmas, and Louis XIV or the Prince de Condé is his godfather) (b.1650)
Benedikte Henriëtte (b.1652) - not sure if her existence may or may not be butterflied by the existence of her brother, but let's assume it isn't.
​

Little Friedrich (or Fédéric-Emanuel) is going to grow up at the French court and is going to be, at least for the beginning of his life, rather unimportant (at least IMHO). But come the 1670s/1680s he'd probably be somebody - at least if things run reasonably close to schedule. The Act of Settlement isn't in place yet, which means that he'd still be in line for the British throne; if his cousin, Karl II, dies without issue as OTL, he'd be well-placed to become elector (should Prince Rupert remain without lawful issue), since the French would feel more comfortable with someone not the emperor's brother-in-law (twice over).

But that's in the future in OTL. Might not be in this universe. What might his life be like? How would his existence affect things?

 

[Jonathan]

Would he be catholic? Although the Act of Settlement isn't place at this moment, it will still come into affect in 1700s as the Protestant parliament fear the Roman Catholic religion of all other members of the House of Stuart. The line of Sophia of Hanover was the most junior among the Stuarts, but consisted of convinced Protestants.

What if like his uncle, Prince Rupert of the Rhine was close to his uncle, King Charles I of England and the first cousin of King Charles II of England, Frederick, becomes friends with King Charles II of England and marries one of his illegitimate daughter:
Friedrich Emanuel Ludwig (1650–1684) m. Charlotte Jemima Henrietta Maria FitzRoy (1650–1684)

Princess Charlotte (1670-1706) m. Louis, Grand Dauphin (1661–1711)
King Charles III (1673–1718)
Anne (1675–1736) m. Peter the Great (1672-1733)
Princess Hennrietta (1681–1726) m. Joseph I, Holy Roman Emperor (1678-1711)
Prince Rupert, Duke of Cumberland (1682–1711)​

 

[JonasResende]

Would he be catholic? Although the Act of Settlement isn't place at this moment, it will still come into affect in 1700s as the Protestant parliament fear the Roman Catholic religion of all other members of the House of Stuart. The line of Sophia of Hanover was the most junior among the Stuarts, but consisted of convinced Protestants.

What if like his uncle, Prince Rupert of the Rhine was close to his uncle, King Charles I of England and the first cousin of King Charles II of England, Frederick, becomes friends with King Charles II of England and marries one of his illegitimate daughter:
Friedrich Emanuel Ludwig (1650–1684) m. Charlotte Jemima Henrietta Maria FitzRoy (1650–1684)

Princess Charlotte (1670-1706) m. Louis, Grand Dauphin (1661–1711)
King Charles III (1673–1718)
Anne (1675–1736) m. Peter the Great (1672-1733)
Princess Hennrietta (1681–1726) m. Joseph I, Holy Roman Emperor (1678-1711)
Prince Rupert, Duke of Cumberland (1682–1711)​

An interesting idea, but considering that he'd be a teenager/20ish by the time it becomes apparent Charles II isn't going to be having issue, I have a feeling they're going to concentrate on the Palatinate - where from the time he's a teenager (1663, assuming his dad still dies on schedule), he's a lot closer to the Pfalz throne than the English. I read once that if you'd told Sophia of the Palatinate, Electress of Hannover, that the son she gave birth to on the day that Charles II re-entered London (George I) would one day sit on the English throne as king, no gambler at Whites or Newmarket would've bet on those odds.

 

[Valena]

First minor PoD - the will of Elisabeth of Bohemia is likely to be worded differently/the inheritance disputes are going to be solved differently.
Second - the boy is likely going to be French candidate in Polish elections come 1670, and this would likely influence his choice of a spouse. If Queen Ludwika has a nephew rather than son-in-law she'll be promoting him in her intrigues, so English and Palatinate considerations would be taking backseat. This is the important thingy to consider. The boy will be 18 in 1668, so too young to run, but this won't stop the scheme. I think the result would be the same sort of fail as with the Condes, but nevertheless...
This fail translates in the next item - come 1670, instead of trying (and failing) to get Prince Rupert into Hochadel marriage, Karl Ludwig may concentrate his efforts on domesticating Friedrich, probably even arranging the lad's marriage to Liselotte to secure the Palatine succession for him (provided Friedrich is not married elsewhere by this time - see the above item), should Electoral Prince Karl not produce any heir. Religion may be an issue, but in OTL heir presumptive for Karl was a Catholic anyway.

So, no OTL War of Palatinate succession, an ATL second Duchess of Orleans, and probable changes for Britain down the line.

 

[JonasResende]

First minor PoD - the will of Elisabeth of Bohemia is likely to be worded differently/the inheritance disputes are going to be solved differently.
Second - the boy is likely going to be French candidate in Polish elections come 1670, and this would likely influence his choice of a spouse. If Queen Ludwika has a nephew rather than son-in-law she'll be promoting him in her intrigues, so English and Palatinate considerations would be taking backseat. This is the important thingy to consider. The boy will be 18 in 1668, so too young to run, but this won't stop the scheme. I think the result would be the same sort of fail as with the Condes, but nevertheless...
This fail translates in the next item - come 1670, instead of trying (and failing) to get Prince Rupert into Hochadel marriage, Karl Ludwig may concentrate his efforts on domesticating Friedrich, probably even arranging the lad's marriage to Liselotte to secure the Palatine succession for him (provided Friedrich is not married elsewhere by this time - see the above item), should Electoral Prince Karl not produce any heir. Religion may be an issue, but in OTL heir presumptive for Karl was a Catholic anyway.

So, no OTL War of Palatinate succession, an ATL second Duchess of Orleans, and probable changes for Britain down the line.

Wouldn't marrying him to Liselotte be a waste - if he's not married already (to who?). It's not like Liselotte can inherit the Palatinate (electorates AFAIK were covered by Salic Law), so I'm not sure I see the point in such a match. I can buy that Karl Ludwig would probably push his nephew for a German match if he's still single. I'm just not sure that Liselotte would be a likely candidate - plenty more interesting matches (Philippe, duc d'Orléans (if Minette still dies), Willem III of Orange, etc)

 

[JonasResende]

Also, @Valena, what would change in the wording of Elizabeth of Bohemia's will? I ask because I've never seen the document, but I know she threatened to disinherit kids who converted to Catholicism (I'm not sure if she forgave Luise Hollandine, but I know she forgave Eduard rather quickly).

 

[Valena]

In OTL she did pardon Edward, but then named Rupert her sole heir in her will, and then there was a lawsuit between Rupert and Edward's widow lasting into early 1670ies, and Edward died without even reconsiling with his brother.

Wouldn't marrying him to Liselotte be a waste - if he's not married already (to who?). It's not like Liselotte can inherit the Palatinate (electorates AFAIK were covered by Salic Law), so I'm not sure I see the point in such a match. I can buy that Karl Ludwig would probably push his nephew for a German match if he's still single. I'm just not sure that Liselotte would be a likely candidate - plenty more interesting matches (Philippe, duc d'Orléans (if Minette still dies), Willem III of Orange, etc)

I'm going by the precedent of Neuburg line matches in similar situations, when a cousin was going to inherit. But yes, without hindsight it would be considered a waste.

Googling now who Friedrich can marry as a presumptive candidate to Polish crown. He may well end up married to a "Piast" noble, but to whom?

 

[JonasResende]

Googling now who Friedrich can marry as a presumptive candidate to Polish crown. He may well end up married to a "Piast" noble, but to whom?

Karolina, sister of the last duke of Liegnitz & Brieg perhaps? She's round the same age, converted to Catholicism OTL, and married a cousin to the king of Denmark/duke of Holstein IIRC. Had one child before they separated.

 

[Valena]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karolina_of_Legnica-Brieg This one?
First, TTL she'll marry earlier (the attempts to "Piastify" the lad would be ongoing since 1665, so I can see the actual marriage as early as 1668).
Second, I can see a conflict between Louis XIV and Emperor in this situation, France wanting pro-French Duke of Liegnitz & Brieg, if 1675 death of Karolina's brother proceeds as OTL.

 

[Valena]

So, the prince in question is a "somebody" since mid-1660ies at least, just not for the reasons related to Britain or Palatinate.
I wonder if the existence of Friedrich affects marriages of his sisters, since it requires Sobieski-level mother-son conflict for Anna Gonzaga beginning to push her sons-in-law for Polish throne instead of her son.

 

[JonasResende]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karolina_of_Legnica-Brieg This one?
First, TTL she'll marry earlier (the attempts to "Piastify" the lad would be ongoing since 1665, so I can see the actual marriage as early as 1668).
Second, I can see a conflict between Louis XIV and Emperor in this situation, France wanting pro-French Duke of Liegnitz & Brieg, if 1675 death of Karolina's brother proceeds as OTL.

Yup. That's what I was also wondering. The emperor might do what he did with Saxe-Lauenburg's female succession , to avoid the king of France having a jack-in-the-box prince next door. However, interestingly, if this boy is a replacement for Wisniowiecki, the emperor might offer his half-sister for Fédéric to marry.

So, the prince in question is a "somebody" since mid-1660ies at least, just not for the reasons related to Britain or Palatinate.
I wonder if the existence of Friedrich affects marriages of his sisters, since it requires Sobieski-level mother-son conflict for Anna Gonzaga beginning to push her sons-in-law for Polish throne instead of her son.

I think Anne Henriëtte would probably still marry the duc d'Enghien (she was the first sister to marry in 1663, so that predates the Piastification efforts). Luise Marie's proposed match to the Comte de Longueville might be stayed if the French are going to rather push her brother (as opposed to Longueville). If she marries before her brother becomes king of Poland it would most likely be different to if she marries after. Benedikte is going to marry afterwards anyway (her being available at earliest in 1665 (when she's 13yo), but I'd imagine they'd probably wait a bit (Anne was 15yo (which for Benedikte is 1667), and Luise was 24yo (in 1676)). One of them might be considered as a second match for Monsieur or even Emperor Leopold (if Empress Margarita lives a bit longer, while Klaudia goes off to England, or she'd be more important (if she's the sister to the king of Poland) than Eleonore of Neuburg (in theory).)

I'm not sure who else might be suitable.

 

[JonasResende]

So, if Fédéric loses the 1668 Polish election, would the French back him again in 1672 if Wisniowiecki is elected and dies as OTL? Or would the political landscape as regards England, France and the Palatinate have shifted enough then that it would seem unlikely?

 

[Valena]

So, if Fédéric loses the 1668 Polish election, would the French back him again in 1672 if Wisniowiecki is elected and dies as OTL? Or would the political landscape as regards England, France and the Palatinate have shifted enough then that it would seem unlikely?

In fact, he has a shot at winning in 1672, since in OTL there were no strong French candidates this year.

 

[JonasResende]

In fact, he has a shot at winning in 1672, since in OTL there were no strong French candidates this year.

Cool. It seems rather pointless asking how his rule would differ from Jan III's OTL reign. But if we say that Fédéric (King Fryderyk I?) shows his uncle Rupert's talent for leading armies and the sciences, with a combination of his mother/aunt's taste for intrigue, and has a fair smattering of brains (a la Rupert, and Aunts Elisabeth and Luise), combined with his Pfalz uncle (Karl I)'s weakness for women, how do you think he'd fare? What would be reasonable accomplishments for him to make in his reign? And would he perhaps marry Wisniowiecki's widow if he's not already married? Or is the Piast girl a good choice?

 

[Valena]

And would he perhaps marry Wisniowiecki's widow if he's not already married?

Sobieski was asked to divorce his wife and do this to get the Austrian support; if Federic is not married yet, the same offer can be made to him, and he may end up married to Maria Eleonora.
Since he is a pro-French candidate, Sobieski would likely be his loyal hetman during his reign.

 

[Valena]

If he has the same degrees of victories as cavalry commander as Sobieski, yet has the talent to translate it in political capital, he may be successful. Things may start getting interesting in mid-1680ies, when we are getting an Elector Palatine who also happens to be the King of the territory outside of the Holy Roman Empire.

 

[JonasResende]

If he has the same degrees of victories as cavalry commander as Sobieski, yet has the talent to translate it in political capital, he may be successful. Things may start getting interesting in mid-1680ies, when we are getting an Elector Palatine who also happens to be the King of the territory outside of the Holy Roman Empire.

OTL they didn't react too poorly when it came to it in the 18th century, (even though Prince Eugène of Savoie told Leopold that elevating Prussia was the biggest mistake since one of Rudolf II's gaffs) would Leopold react differently in such a scenario to how Karl VI did OTL?

Also, how would this be seen in Poland? Would Fédéric associate with Heidelberg or with Warsaw, especially if he's been Polonized since the 1660s. Does the Palatinate go to a second son? Or does Poland stay in PU with the Palatinate in a similar (if reversed) scenario to with Saxony OTL (reverse in the sense of the ruler sits in Warsaw rather than the electorate's capital)?

 

[Valena]

Also, how would this be seen in Poland? Would Fédéric associate with Heidelberg or with Warsaw, especially if he's been Polonized since the 1660s. Does the Palatinate go to a second son? Or does Poland stay in PU with the Palatinate in a similar (if reversed) scenario to with Saxony OTL (reverse in the sense of the ruler sits in Warsaw rather than the electorate's capital)?

Reverse from Saxony, I think (though there a) won't be pointless kind of Moldavian adventure, since Frederick knows that he has at least one hereditary title, and in worst case his heir gets Heidelberg; b) there wouldn't be attempts to prioritize elected crown over inherited, at least initially).
Elevating Hanover still happens, me think, since Frederick would be a Catholic ruler.

The role of this line in British succession is unclear, though in between 1650ies PoD and 1710ies a lot may change (the simplest divergence being Anne's daughter, who died of smallpox OTL but was healthy otherwise, surviving and getting Simmern line consort; that will avoid juggling three thrones).

 

[JonasResende]

Reverse from Saxony, I think (though there a) won't be pointless kind of Moldavian adventure, since Frederick knows that he has at least one hereditary title, and in worst case his heir gets Heidelberg; b) there wouldn't be attempts to prioritize elected crown over inherited, at least initially).
Elevating Hanover still happens, me think, since Frederick would be a Catholic ruler.

Okay, so no Moldavian adventure a la Sobieski or an Ingrian/Livonian/Courlander one a la Friedrich August II. Makes sense that Fryderyk won't be (necessarily) interested in getting a strip of territory when his half-Piast son (who's the most logical heir to the Piast territories if his uncle dies w/o issue as OTL) is going to have a base of operations in Silesia.

The role of this line in British succession is unclear, though in between 1650ies PoD and 1710ies a lot may change (the simplest divergence being Anne's daughter, who died of smallpox OTL but was healthy otherwise, surviving and getting Simmern line consort; that will avoid juggling three thrones).

I will confess that I liked your and @VVD0D95's idea of Karl II's son marrying the Lady Isabella (Anne's half-sister). Would a match between Isabella and Fryderyk's son be on the cards? Or is Poland of too little interest to Westminster.

 

[Valena]

I will confess that I liked your and @VVD0D95's idea of Karl II's son marrying the Lady Isabella (Anne's half-sister). Would a match between Isabella and Fryderyk's son be on the cards? Or is Poland of too little interest to Westminster.

Said son is a heir presumptive to Palatinate, even disregarding the rest, and is a high-ranked match (worse than what Mary got, but better than Anne's).

Okay, so no Moldavian adventure a la Sobieski or an Ingrian/Livonian/Courlander one a la Friedrich August II. Makes sense that Fryderyk won't be (necessarily) interested in getting a strip of territory when his half-Piast son (who's the most logical heir to the Piast territories if his uncle dies w/o issue as OTL) is going to have a base of operations in Silesia.

Something to the less degree is possible in Great Turkish War for PR reasons - a King who manages to achieve "from sea to sea" holdings would be regarded well. But not to OTL degree of enthusiasm/personal profit for the ruler, who is going to have hereditary holdings elsewhere (Palatinate, Silesia (provided he marries Karoline and not Maria Eleonora)).