WI: East Prussia as Israel

The no Israel in the Middle-East thread got me thinking about this.

Essentially how would Europe and the world develop if East Prussia, rather than being split between Poland and the USSR became
the territory given to Jews to establish a Jewish nation?

Assume the new nations is'nt a Soviet puppet.
 
Assume the new nations is'nt a Soviet puppet.

See, I don't think that's possible. Given the left leaning sympathies of most of the Zionists, if we place them between a bunch of Soviet-bloc nations, "Israel" is almost certain to fall into the Soviet sphere.

In other news: do they get Danzig?
 
See, I don't think that's possible. Given the left leaning sympathies of most of the Zionists, if we place them between a bunch of Soviet-bloc nations, "Israel" is almost certain to fall into the Soviet sphere

And then when the fifties roll around, all the other leaders get purged and the Communists take total control, with all that that means.
 
See, I don't think that's possible. Given the left leaning sympathies of most of the Zionists, if we place them between a bunch of Soviet-bloc nations, "Israel" is almost certain to fall into the Soviet sphere.

In other news: do they get Danzig?

I knew I should've written the whole idea.

Assume for whatever reason that the Western Allies capture East Prussia and the USSR does'nt de as well and does'nt have a border with them.
 

Eurofed

Banned
Assume for whatever reason that the Western Allies capture East Prussia and the USSR does'nt de as well and does'nt have a border with them.

The Anglo-Americans enforcing the large-scale ethnic cleansing of Germans in full sight of their press is politically ASB. Not raising objections when the Soviets do so out of sight on the other side of the Iron Curtain was a wholly different thing. And placing large numbers of resentful Jew survivors among large numbers of surly German Prussians has nasty political implications, too.

I think your scenario could only theoretically work if the Germans evacuate East Prussia on their own in the expectation of a Soviet attack (they did so to some degree IOTL, we neede to be rather thorough), then the Western Allies manage to snatch the area at the last minute. I'm not sure if there is a plausible military sequence of events that would allow to do this.
 
So Lithuania and Poland are liberated by the Western allies?

Well I had'nt really thought how far back for a PoD.

Let's say that Poland as a result does'nt become a Soviet puppet, falling instead to the West.

Lithuania would still be annexed by the soviets, but that would be the only border it has with them.


Oh, and to answer Michandre on Danzig, the portion of Danzig on the Eastern side of the Vistula river goes to it
while the remainder goes to Poland.
 
OK, got it. But what about Germany? Is it still divided with a Soviet occupation zone west of Poland?

Nope, the Allies take over all of Germany and Poland, while the Soviets basically get what they got OTL minus Poland and East Germany.
 
Originally posted by Iori
Oh, and to answer Michandre on Danzig, the portion of Danzig on the Eastern side of the Vistula river goes to it while the remainder goes to Poland.

Can't do that, I'm affraid. Danzig lies in western part of Vistula's delta, so it is hard to decide which mouth is THE Vistula. And if you decide that it is Martwa Wisła, which is Danzig's main water route, you practically block Danzig old port, since it is hard to have a port with a state border across it. Besides, why should Israel get Danzig? Poland has older claims (nobody cares about German claims) and Israel gets a perfect sea port in Konigsberg or Pilau (Baltiysk) anyway. Giving Danzig to Israel would only start Polish-Israeli conflict. Completely unnecessary.
 
Besides, why should Israel get Danzig?

For the same reason certain borders have been drawn throughout history; It's aesthetic that way. :p


Though to be more precise this is what I was meaning;

border.png
 
Nope, the Allies take over all of Germany and Poland, while the Soviets basically get what they got OTL minus Poland and East Germany.

In that case you could have significantly more Anti-Semitism in Germany today then IOTL, as Germany lost territories to the Jews.

Furthermore, IOTL, the danger of Soviet invasion drove the Germans firmly into the western block, note especially Berlin airlift. ITTL, you may have increased opposition to the West and on the other side stronger support for Communism. in the whole of Germany - no matter how many Germanies exist.

Next, if since you'd have a major POD considering the fate of Germany, you may have butterflied away the whole european unification. If not, then Poland will probably be a founding member of any form of Europe, and Israel, ITTL an almost purely Ashkenazi state, will join sooner or later as well. It would be quite cool to see Euro coins with the Menorah imprinted...
 
Its been a while since we've had this one pop up.

The big problem I'd see is that this is deep in communist territory, its totally reliant on the soviets to be built- when the Soviets already had their own Israel out in Siberia.
 
Originally posted by Iori
Though to be more precise this is what I was meaning;

Ah, you meant the territory of Free City of Danzig, not the town itself. I get it. Poles would be unhappy anyway, since they would prefer to have whole Vistula for themselves as a communication route. OTOH, if Polish-Israeli relations are good, any problems might be solved.
And here I can predict some tensions. What kind of Poland exists exactly ITTL? With OTL 1945 borders or with OTL 1939 borders+Danzig? Or perhaps with western border like OTL 1939 and eastern like OTL 1945? If so, Poles are incredibily pissed off. They lost a big chunk of their territory to the Soviets, they had almost no compensation from the Germans, since the territory Poles were interested in (since 1918) is taken by the Jews. That might create problems. However, in face of Soviet threat it might be forgotten or Poles migth decide the Soviets are to be blamed.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
We could actually have Molotov's idea go through. He proposed making a Jewish state in the Crimea. Stalin actually entertained the idea for a while, but gave up on it after Israel was established. That didn't stop him, though, for accusing Molotov of "Zionist sympathies" before going on to jail his Jewish wife (whose idea Stalin thought it had been in the first place).

So what about that? Stalin creates a Jewish Crimea.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
Why can't they just use the autonomous jewish oblast? Isn't that what it was made for?

Nobody ever took that seriously, not Stalin, not the Party, and especially not the Jews. The fact that it was created at all was really just a bizarre experiment at "Marixst-Leninist Zionism" that went over like a lead balloon. It was also created partly out of a need to get Soviet Jews to officially meet the USSR's criteria for being considered a legitimate "nationality" (a.k.a. ethnicity), one of which was having a homeland.

The fact that someone as high up as Molotov suggested the Crimea and that Stalin actually entertained the idea is a testament to what the Soviets really thought (or rather, didn't think) of the desolate, tiger-infested backwater they not even halfheartedly tried to turn into a "Soviet Zion."
 
The fact that someone as high up as Molotov suggested the Crimea and that Stalin actually entertained the idea is a testament to what the Soviets really thought (or rather, didn't think) of the desolate, tiger-infested backwater they not even halfheartedly tried to turn into a "Soviet Zion."

Well, there was a good amount of activity during the Korenizatsiya phase, but Stalin did a 180 on the policy shortly afterwards, so even if anyone wanted to really try, they couldn't.
 
I'll bite on this, though ASBs will abound!

For whatever reason, the Soviets stay bogged down in Poland and Russia. This allows the Allied advance from France to flow through Germany and conquer all of Germany, Austria, Czech, etc. With the fall of Berlin, much of the Nazi warmachine surrenders, though some groups do hold out for a while, and are destroyed by the Red Army (mostly). Hitler probably still offs himself; many of the other suicides probably don't, as they get to contend with Allied justice (which will imprison them, but won't torture and execute them).

In the aftermath, Poland's eastern border is the Curzon line (more or less).

Germany is broken up into 4 pieces: one each for the US, the UK, France, and Poland (Poland's portion includes most of the parts of Germany that ITTL were annexed).

One interesting note is that in this time, almost all of the Concentration Camps are liberated by the Allies (OTL, many - if not most - are actually liberated by the Soviets). Auschwitz in particular gets to the Allies, who decide to essentially grant East Prussia as restitution to the Jewish people. The Zionists aren't too pleased with it, but they cant' exactly say "No", and so the Jewish State of East Prussia is born. Official languages include German, Polish, and Yiddish (the Litvish variety is standardized). Unlike OTL Israel, this state has none of the glamor or romance of the Holy Land; thus, attempts to establish Hebrew as the language or give the land a biblical name fail.

The Germans in this land are all relocated to Germany proper; though they spend a while in refugee camps (up to a decade in some cases), they're eventually all integrated into what is now the four German republics.

Germany is never reunited, as there is no need for it to be a bulwark against the Reds. Instead, Poland and East Prussia become the front line, and Marshall Plan aid money pours into the two nations at an alarming rate. Also, European migration into the Jewish state is higher than IOTL. Not only do we get all the survivors like OTL, but the UK and France encourage immigration to strengthen the nation against communist influences. Also, the border with Lithuania leaks like a sieve, and a large portion of Jews from the USSR manage to make it into East Prussia.
 
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