WI: earlier/more/better Mustangs

Everyone (and his brother too) interested in ww2 knows a thing or two about the P-51/Mustang.
So - how much of an impact on the said war would've made an earlier introduction of the Mustang in the non-RAF Allied airforces? Better engines earlier? USAF not dragging their feet for months to actually test the XP-51? Additional producion surces as early as possible? Possible/fesible German/Japanese reply? Changes in RAF's doctrine and design & purchase of new fighters in the UK?
 
P-51 was good for long range, from having a lot of volume devoted to fuel, that did effect its handling.

It was less maneuverable than the P-40 at low and medium speeds. It couldn't keep in turns with the Me-109, either.

It had worse Power and Wing loading than other Allied and Axis fighters, save the P-47, that was worse than the P-51

What it had was Speed in a straight line, Range, and a decent supercharger. Plus fighting a mix of mostly rookie, low hour Luftwaffe Pilots.

It came at just the right time and place to be a big winner.

Earlier Mustangs, for example, wouldn't do much for the Battle of Britain.
 
The USAF didn't exist until 1947. Make that USAAC.

I wonder what happened to all the experte high hour Luftwaffe pilots.
 
The USAF didn't exist until 1947. Make that USAAC.

I wonder what happened to all the experte high hour Luftwaffe pilots.

Part was this, 11000 109s were damaged/lost in takeoff and landing accidents

Flying was dangerous, and that's before a stream of .50s was headed your way
 
P-51 was good for long range, from having a lot of volume devoted to fuel, that did effect its handling.

It was less maneuverable than the P-40 at low and medium speeds. It couldn't keep in turns with the Me-109, either.

It had worse Power and Wing loading than other Allied and Axis fighters, save the P-47, that was worse than the P-51

What it had was Speed in a straight line, Range, and a decent supercharger. Plus fighting a mix of mostly rookie, low hour Luftwaffe Pilots.

It came at just the right time and place to be a big winner.

Earlier Mustangs, for example, wouldn't do much for the Battle of Britain.

I've stated 'non-RAF Allied airforces' for a reason - basically USAAC/USAAF, RAAF, RNZAF etc (they get it earlier/more/better). Perhaps VVS also gets it.
BWT - Merlin's Mustang's power loading at 25000 ft was better than of the Fw 190; we know too well that P-40 was a toast when pitted against Bf 109 or Fw 190.

Part was this, 11000 109s were damaged/lost in takeoff and landing accidents
...

A myth.
 

Archibald

Banned
In France fights on the Armée de l'Air moves to Algiers with a host of Dewoitine D-520s and some hopes to resume production in North Africa... which is not possible. With every single spitfire held for the defense of Great Britain, the only aircraft available is the Hawk 87 (P-40 !). Then per lack of better Curtiss the French gets interested in that dark horse, the NA-73X... (in French, but Google translator should work )

http://www.1940lafrancecontinue.org/FTL/1942/annexes/anx-c-y1-mustang.pdf
 

Archibald

Banned
Mustang
and the Air Force
: a love story
The impact of the French requirements on developing
u hunter North
-
American
(Excerpt from the book of Stephen hawk,
History of the Air Force in World War
World
Ed. Docavia, Pari
s 1997)
The Air Force had in the second quarter 1941 a very urgent need for a chass
eur
air superiority. At that time, his material has become primarily
méricain, the
French equipment that can not be renewed e
Great t
-
de Bretagne
Sirant serve
its first
own units with the best fighter of the moment, the Supermarine Spitfire V
Entered into
Service in March 1941.
But the only American aircraft immediately available fl
have the Curtiss Hawk
-
81 (P
-
40 B and C for the USAAC / USAA
F, Tomahawk RAF) and its successor the Hawk
-
87
(P
-
40 D and E or Kittyhawk). The first Hawk
-
87 production, belonging to a contract
British, made its first flight May 22, 1941.
Alas
The Hawk
-
87 was not very promising
As Hunter
air superiority. Heavier than the Hawk
-
81 and slightly more powerful,
he rode more slowly and was
less maneuverable. In fact,
version
s
improved
of
dewoitine
D.5
20, the
s
and D.520M
D.5
23 forestay
in
t top
s
in all these areas both
plane
Curtiss s ... But we could not hope to emerge from the ground a Dewoitine factory
make the
D.5
23 in series.
To improve the P
-
40, we contemplated the replacement of the engine Allison V
-
1710 by a
Merlin 28 built by Packard (Packard V
-
1650
-
1). The P
-
40E made its first flight on 30
June 1941 and deliveries to the RAF began in January 1942. But
engine
not enough to give the P
-
40 talent against the best aircraft of the Luftwaffe.
The P
-
40E
-
5 reached 364 mph (586 km / h) to 2
0
000 feet (6
100
m) against 362 mph (582
m / h) 15
000 feet (4
575
m) P
-
40E
-
1. A feeble progress ...
The states
-
States also proposed the Bell P
-
39D. Alas, with the same engine as Allison
Hawk
-
87 performance of this airplane yet very
innovative also were not
better than those of Curtiss, with a speed of 360 mph at 15
000 feet and poor
rate of climb.
Finally, the Lockheed P
-
38 was very promising at high altitude with its turbo
-
compressor,
but the French
could only, in 1941, to procure what equip their Wing
Hunting long range, to escort their B
-
24. Furthermore, a twin-engine had its
own limitations as an air superiority fighter.
This was to force the Ar
Mee Air to choose a different path
: Support early on
development of an advanced variant of the hunter North
-
American NA
-
73, first developed
on British funds and not yet adopted by the USAAF. With the same m
otor Allison
the Hawk
-
87
/ P
-
40
E
The NA
-
73 had much better performance, reaching
615
km / h (382 mph) in
3
965 m (1
3
000 feet)
and 629 km / h at 4
700m, against 582 km / h in
4
575
m for the H
-
87
. Maneuverability, tau
x rise and ease of control were very
higher ceu
x P
-
40 (all versions) or P
-
39. Although a little less maneuvering
the Spitfire V, NA
-
73 had much better wings (it is true that those of Spitfire
were notoriously poor).
The French invested in the NA program
-
73 in
intends to develop a
variant with a Merlin engine two-stage / two compression rates (in
Series
60). Rolls
-
Royce is already overloaded, the engine should be produced by Packard, who
Merlin already manufactured 28 (with
single stage compressor) as the Packard
V
-
1650
-
1 for the P
-
40E. The French Government advanced the funds to
enlarge the Packard plant and have it produce the new Merlin (referred Packard
V
-
1650
-
3 and 7) as well as to create u
NA not new production line
-
73 (Dallas, Tx). In
exchange, the US government promised to repay the government françai
s if
USAAF adopted the new fighter.
As interim measures, the Air Force decided to acquire NA
-
73 motor
Allison, then V engine
-
1650
-
1.
Thus the French capital significantly accelerated the deve
opment of
Mustang compared to what it would have been without them.
Mustang and "
French Mustang
"
: Versions
-
N / A
-
73
:
varia
Initial nt with 4 x 12.7
mm and 4 x 7.62
mm
. Delivered from February 1942
the Air Force
.
-
N / A
-
83
: Slightly modified variant (Army of 4 x 12.7
mm). Delivered from April 1942
as the Mustang I and later referred to as P
-
51 by the USAAF.
-
N / A
-
89
: First specifically French variant, using the Packard V
-
1650
-
1 P
-
40E. First flight July 27, 1941
(A year earlier, probably,
in the absence of intervention
French)
. First copy output end of March 1942, delivery has
ux first units
line in June 1942. Max. 382 mph (614 km / h) to 11
300 feet (3
444 m) and 395 mph
(635 km / h) to 18,600 feet (5670 m). armament
:
6
x 12.7
mm
300
shots each
(Or 4
x 12.7 mm
with 400 rounds per gun
)
, Carrying capacity
2
bombs of 125 kg or 2 tanks
Additional 65 Imp. Gal. combat radius of action
1
150 mls (1
850 km) with
additional tanks. Some equipped with "Malcolm hood" British re
ndu
famous by the Spitfire.
-
N / A
-
91: variant
4 x 20
mm, called Mustang IA and delivered by the RAF from July
1942, standardized by the USAAF under the name P
-
51A (some
-
each modified for
reco photo as F6).
-
N / A
-
92
: French variant using the Allison V
-
1710
-
81 and armament
developed by the
British 2 x 40
mm Vickers "S" and 2 x
7
, 7
mm (to adjust shooting). fighter aircraft
tanks, initially valued at RAE early 1942, comes from the summer of 1942 for ground attack.
-
N / A
-
93
: Variation of NA
-
89 with wings more rigid
es and two hardpoints for 2
250 kg bombs or 2 additional tanks 125 Imp. Gal. increased operating range
:
1500 miles (2500 km) with maximum cruising speed. Deliveries from December
ember 1942.
Most equipped "Malcolm hood".
-
N / A
-
95
: American variant of the NA
-
89 "French". designated P
-
51B.
-
N / A
-
98
: American variant of the NA
-
93 "French". designated P
-
51B
-
AT
(
Has for
Assault
).
As NA
-
95, all NA
-
98 are
armed
6 x 12.7
mm.
-
N / A
-
102
: French variant using Packar
d V
-
1650
-
3. First flight (with one engine
Merlin imported 61) 26 December 1941. First production copy December 5
1942 delivered to frontline units from early April 1943. Speed m
ax. 440
mph (707 km / h) to 30
000 feet (9
144
m). internal tanks
180 US gallons. armament
:
4
or 6
x 12.7
mm, carrying capacity
2 bombs of 125 or 250 kg or 2 tanks
additional 150 US gallons. cruising speed operating range maxim
ale
1
800
mls (3
000 km) with known reservoirs
Additional Features. Most equipped "Malcolm hood".
-
N / A
-
103
: American variant
NA
-
102
designated P
-
51C, with the Packard V
-
1650
-
7.
reached 439
mph (705 km / h) to 25
000
feet (7
620
m).
Army 6 x 12.7 mm.
shipments
the first line units
From June 1943.
-
N / A
-
105
: French version with a partially redesigned structure to reduce
the
unnecessary weight, and using the Packard V
-
1650
-
3. reviewed Cooling System
: radiator
of oil replaced by a heat exchanger set at
the front of the oil tank and new
input ventral air. This variant corresponds to a request for an interceptor
short
range and was developed parallel to the line of NA
-
106/109/111. although the
project preceded the DN
-
106, required design the important work that made
this variant appeared later that the P
-
51D. Devices with the glass teardrop
expanded and improved and the backbone extending the drift. Delivery
units of
first
E online from June 1944. Max. 466 mph (749 km / h) to 29
000 feet
(8
840
m). armament
4 x 12.7
mm
315
shots each, carrying capacity
2 bombs
125 or 2 additional tanks of 65 US gallons. speed operating range of
cruises
maximum era
1
100 mls (1
800 km) with additional tanks.
-
N / A
-
106
: N / A
-
103 equipped with glass teardrop slide and with the back of
redesigned fuselage. called P
-
51D by the USAAF. Delivery to frontline units
from
January 1944
(Six months earlier
without a doubt
in the absence of French intervention)
.
Max. 466 mph (749 km / h) to 29
000 feet (8
840 m). armament
6 x 12.7
mm. Ray
Action at maximum cruise speed
1
100 mls (1
800 km) with tanks
su
Additional Features.
-
N / A
-
109
: N / A
-
106 with backbone extending the drift to improve stabili
you
directional. called P
-
51E
by the USAAF. Delivery to frontline units from
of April 1944
(Six months earlier
without a doubt
in the absence of in
French intervention)
.
-
N / A
-
111
"French" variant (factory Dallas) NA
-
109 with 4 x 12.7
mm only,
but all supplied with 490 rounds per gun. Delivery from March 1944.
-
N / A
-
115
: American variant of the NA
-
105 "French", called P
-
51F.
-
N / A
-
126
: Variant developed specifically for Far
-
East, using the V
-
1650
-
9
with water injection and referred to as P
-
51H by the Americans. armament
6 x 12.7
mm.
Maximum speed
487 mph (783 km / h) at 25
000 feet. Delivery from
September 1944
(Six months earlier
without a doubt
in the absence of French intervention)
.
It is interesting to compare the maximum speed NA
-
89 entering service in May
-
June 1942 with its allies and contemporary opponents.
N / A
-
89
3
82 mph to 11
300 feet and 395 mph to 18
600 feet.
Spitfire V
: 374 mph to 13
000 feet.
Spitfire LF IX
: 384 mph to 10
500 feet and 404 mph at 21
000 feet.
P
-
38F
-
15
-
LO
: 351 mph to 10
000 feet and 395mph 25
000 feet.
FW
-
190A8
: 408 mph to 21
000 feet.
Bf.10
9F3
: 390 mph to 22
000 feet (23 to 387mph
000 feet to the G6 version, more
late).
Macchi MC.202
: 364 mph to 13
120 feet and 370 mph to 16
400 feet.
Overall, NA Performance
-
89 were intermediate between those of the Spitfire V and
IX. Enga
Ge from June 1942, he helped to restore balance compromised by Bf
-
109F and above
very dangerous Focke
-
Wulf 190A. the ray
is exceptional action of the
Pearl North
-
American favored maintaining an offensive posture in the Mediterranean during
has seco
ndia
half of 1942.
From summer 1942, the USAAF Mustang going on, even shortening life
operational
P
-
40, whose production was reduced
at
the fall of 1942 and stopped a year later, after the
Construction 11
000. Thereafter, has
rrivée P
-
47 in the arsenal of the USAAF
did not have the importance it would probably have covered if the Mustang had
developed more
tardily.
NA
-
89/95 and 93/98 (P
-
51B) were some time in parallel with the products 102/103
(P
-
51C) and 10
6/109/11 (P
-
51D) because the V engine
-
1650
-
1 was cheaper and easier to
build than in 1650
-
3, 7 and 9. In late 1942 / early 1943, the P
-
51B replaced the last P
-
40
in RAF squadrons and the Commonwealth, was then used
increasing c
ike a
fighter ground attack, with the increasing number of P
-
51C and D.
Production of Allison engines could be concentrated on the P
-
39, his successor P
-
63 and
obviously
on the P
-
38 turbo
-
compressor.
The French purchases
I
-
variants
Allison engine (800 aircraft)
N / A
-73 200 (to replace D.520), October 1941 to January 1942. Called deliveries
"Mustang I". 15 converted for photo reconnaissance (Mustang IP). Furthermore, on the
es 320
aircraft delivered to the RAF from August 1941, the Brits will donate
300
the Air Force as an emergency measure rather than using them for combat support.
N / A
-83: 300 deliveries from February to May 1942. Called "Mustang IA". 30 converted to the
Photo reconnaissance (Mustang IPA).
N / A
-92 300 ( "tank destroyers" for the ground attack and support tac
tick), deliveries
from September 1942 to February 1943. Called "Mustang IC".
II - engine variants Packard V-1650-1 (1 200 aircraft)
N / A
-89 800 (to fit most of the GC of the Air Force), April deliveries
November 1942. Called "Mustang II". 50 converted for photo reconnaissance (Mustang
IPI).
N / A
-93: 400, deliveries from December 1942 to March 1943. Called "Mustang IIA".
III - Variants engine Packard V-1650-3 or 7 (2495 aircraft)
N / A
-102
1
000 (for the final re-equipment of the Air Force during the war), deliveries
March-May 1944. Called "Mustang III". 50 converted for photo reconnaissance
(Mustang IIIP).
N / A
-105: 400 (special order "interceptor"), from April to August 1944. Called deliveries
"Mustang IV".
N / A
-111
1
000, 795 only actually delivered, from March 1944 to October 1944.
Called "Mustang IIIA".
N / A
-126: 300 (for the Far East), levied on deliveries of orders of the USAAF
November 1944 to March 1945. Called "Mustang V".
The Air Force used in any 4495 Mustang of all types, nearly a quarter
of the
total production.
In total,
19500 Mustang
were built
 

Mine comes from
“He sent me a long letter relating that I should be sure of the absolute vertical alignment of the tailwheel axis; he also wrote that its inherently weak brakes should be in excellent condition because in WWII, the Luftwaffe lost 11,000 out of 33,000 Bf 109s to takeoff and landing accidents. Steinhoff directly attributed this terrible record to the bad geometry of the plane’s very unstable, splayed-out, narrow landing-gear configuration. In his letter, he said twice that if a German mechanic who really knew the Bf 109 wasn’t handy, I should not get into the cockpit.”
_Flight Journal_ by Corky Meyer, Grummans main test pilot.

Letter was from Colonel Johannes Steinhoff, 176 victories

So how many accidents do you think there were? Ground looping was a real problem with this aircraft
 
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Driftless

Donor
A couple of questions:
1. Could an earlier 20mm armed A-36 made an appearance in North Africa, where high altitude performance wasn't as critical?
2. A-36's to the Soviets, especially early producitons?
 
Last edited:
<snip>

So how many accidents do you think there were? Ground looping was a real problem with this aircraft

Not that this is some kind of a bible, but they put the number at 1500: link

A couple of questions:
1. Could an earlier 20mm armed A-36 made an appearance in North Africa, where high performance wasn't as critical?
2. A-36's to the Soviets?

High performance was critical, the USAAC/F have had a performance disadvantage with P-40s they were using in the NA, and small number of early P-38s was not the proper answer to what LW had. The best fighter of the American units was Spitfire V in that time and place. Sure enough, P-51 with drop tanks would've been a better fighter than A-36, and even A-36 was sometimes pressed into escort duties vs. targets in Italy.
As for the VVS - again a far better choice than P-40 they were getting, and a bit better (if we forget the range/radius advantage) than P-39 with engine of same generation.
 

Driftless

Donor
Not that this is some kind of a bible, but they put the number at 1500: link



High performance was critical, the USAAC/F have had a performance disadvantage with P-40s they were using in the NA, and small number of early P-38s was not the proper answer to what LW had. The best fighter of the American units was Spitfire V in that time and place. Sure enough, P-51 with drop tanks would've been a better fighter than A-36, and even A-36 was sometimes pressed into escort duties vs. targets in Italy.
As for the VVS - again a far better choice than P-40 they were getting, and a bit better (if we forget the range/radius advantage) than P-39 with engine of same generation.

I mis-wrote a bit there. I intended to put high-altitude performance
 
As for the VVS - again a far better choice than P-40 they were getting, and a bit better (if we forget the range/radius advantage) than P-39 with engine of same generation.

But P-39/40s performed better at the lower levels the combat occurred on the Eastern Front. Turn and roll performance was more important to them than high altitudes where the P-51 did well, plus the VVS didn't have the higher 100/150 octane fuel Mustangs got their great performance from in late 1944.

Most of their fuel was 95 Octane, and the P-39 barely ran well on that. Merlins had to have the better fuel, so that means even more L-L shipments than OTL

So higher performing Merlins wouldn't be able to be utilized to their fullest till late in the war when the Soviets had built newer refineries so they could make their own 100 octane fuel.
 
P-39 was held in much greater regard than P-40 by Soviets, despite a bit lower power of it's engine (up to 70 HP deficit, same generation of engines). It was faster, climbed better (1000 lbs less), can lose some equipment (wing LMGs, a radio or two from up 3 sets carried by P-39, even some armor) in order to further improve RoC, speed, rate of roll and turn. Thing is that, on about same power, the P-51/P-51A was still somewhat faster than P-39.
Re. fuel - Soviets got the 100 oct fuel from the UK and USA, and their own fuel was of 'no lower than 95 octane' as specified for the new engines (M-105, AM-35A, AM38) already in 1941. The P-39 ran that good on the fuel the Soviets had, that their top scoring aces flew it, and so did other Western aircraft (A-20, B-25, Spitfire with 1- and 2-stage engines, Hurricane) they got.
 
P-39 was held in much greater regard than P-40 by Soviets, despite a bit lower power of it's engine (up to 70 HP deficit, same generation of engines). It was faster, climbed better (1000 lbs less), can lose some equipment (wing LMGs, a radio or two from up 3 sets carried by P-39, even some armor) in order to further improve RoC, speed, rate of roll and turn. Thing is that, on about same power, the P-51/P-51A was still somewhat faster than P-39.
Re. fuel - Soviets got the 100 oct fuel from the UK and USA, and their own fuel was of 'no lower than 95 octane' as specified for the new engines (M-105, AM-35A, AM38) already in 1941. The P-39 ran that good on the fuel the Soviets had, that their top scoring aces flew it, and so did other Western aircraft (A-20, B-25, Spitfire with 1- and 2-stage engines, Hurricane) they got.

This has good details on Soviet fuel, and the limitations they had, even with L-L deliveries
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=42457
 
The USAF didn't exist until 1947. Make that USAAC.

I wonder what happened to all the experte high hour Luftwaffe pilots.

USAAF from mid-1941.

The concept of a "tour" didn't exist in the Luftwaffe. The experten flew in combat until they were killed or otherwise could not fly. That is one of the reasons why their individual scores are so much higher than any other nations. Some of them survived to the end, but most of them didn't.
 
IIRC, around 1939/1940 Ford was approached by the British about producing Merlin engines but Henry Ford's Anglophobia prevented it from happening. If you can somehow get Ford to make the Merlin, the Brits could insist on North American using it due to their familiarity with it in terms of logistics and maintenance. You thus skip the Allison Engine and after some combat usage that shows the need for some improvements, you could have large numbers of P-51D (Maybe B or C model ITTL) by early 1943.
 
IIRC, around 1939/1940 Ford was approached by the British about producing Merlin engines but Henry Ford's Anglophobia prevented it from happening. If you can somehow get Ford to make the Merlin, the Brits could insist on North American using it due to their familiarity with it in terms of logistics and maintenance. You thus skip the Allison Engine and after some combat usage that shows the need for some improvements, you could have large numbers of P-51D (Maybe B or C model ITTL) by early 1943.

The British sent the RR produced Merlin XX (or Mk.28, depending what one reads) to expedite the development of the P-40F. Flight tests begun on June 30th 1941. 1st Packard-produced Merlin (V-1650-1, a 'member' of the Merlin 20s series, ie. single-stage 2-speed supercharger) were started coming from the factory in Sept 1941, and 46 copies were produced before 1941 ended. The V-1650-1 was a better engine than 1-stage supercharged V-1710 of any generation.

All in all - it is not far fetched that British, once they assesed the 1st Mustang prototype(s) and continue with their order for V-1710 powered series, specify a new series of Mustangs that would've been powered by V-1650-1, and, in order to expedite development, they send another Merlin or two across the pond. We might have the 1st flight tests done by Autumn of 1941, and production start by mid 1942. Service use by spring of 1943. The new fighter makes 420+ mph at 22000 ft, has four .50s, radius (not range) of excess of 450 miles with drop tanks. A-36 is not produced by NAA, but A-40 is produced by Curtiss instead of P-40s.
Second production source is opened in Dallas by mid 1942, where the V-1710s are installed. The aircraft makes 410 mph at 17000 ft (basically as IOTL P-51A, but it is in srervice 8 months earlier) that is still a fine performance for Asia/Pacific, where all of these end up.
 
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